Chat Transcript: March 18, 2000
On the ELO Directory, with Robert Kendall, Nick Traenkner, and Kurt Heintz

Topic: Feedback on the Electronic Literature Organization Database

-- Start log: Saturday, March 18, 2000 2:51:23 pm CST

kheintz arrives from Courtyard

nickt says, "hey kurt!"

kheintz says, "guess I got the right time of day"

nickt says, "I left a message on your machine"

nickt says, "just got the thing up- was up till 5 am and been working from 1 till 3:52 when I finished ;)"

kheintz says, ""I just got it... thanks... was drawn away for a while this AM.""

nickt says, "The data is still kinda dirty but it works well for demonstration"

kheintz says, "I'm looking at the URL now..."

nickt says, "I suggest using the 'entries at a time' feature"

kheintz says, "I just took a look at the display entries feature... Nice that it works!"

nickt says, "yeah- almost didn't..."

nickt says, "test"

Eve quietly enters.

Eve arrives.

nickt says, "test"

Deena says, "Hi Eve!""

nickt says, "it should be pretty fast too"

kheintz says, "It is."

Deena says, "Great. I have the link ready on the URL page"

nickt says, "I'm storing the results as html in the table"

Eve says, "hello"

nickt says, "need coffee brb"

kheintz says, "Hi. Forgive me for being a dope today, but this is the first time I've ever been on LinguaMOO."

Deena sends coffee and hot chocolate and donuts around

kheintz says, "I'll just lurk today, if you don't mind. OK?"

Deena says, "No problem, kheintz. There is a short tutorial at the right of your screen. click on how to MOO"

nickt says, "its pretty easy- just select the 'say' radio button and type after the 'say' in the text entry frame"

kheintz says, "Cool"

Deena says, "Hey, I didn't know that!"

Eve says, "or leave it in normal and type say, right?"

kheintz says, "I've figured out that it's a lot like IRC, but am still finding the controls."

Deena says, "Leave in normal and start with a quotation mark to say something or a colon to do something"

nickt says, "yeah, or type " before your say"

Deena says, "Yes, it takes a bit of getting used to"

kheintz says, "I can see that."

Deena says, "If you want to talk to someone privately, you can type page NAME MESSAGE"

nickt says, "too bad we can't place the URL in this right frame"

kheintz says, "I'll just be lurking and sifting through the help files for a while. Everyone else should not worry about me, but go ahead and talk as they ordinarily would."

RobKendall quietly enters.

RobKendall arrives.

nm says, "why not?"

nickt says, "woohoo! we're up rob"

Deena says, "Hi all, we are going to look at Rob and Nick's ELO database today."

RobKendall says, "hi nick. glad to see you got the forms up"

nickt says, "got the entry browser up too"

nm says, "Hi Rob. Nick Montfort, from your DIAL class."

Deena says, "Please feel free to introduce yourselves. I'm Deena Larsen, and I'll be herding cats this evening/day"

RobKendall says, "hi nick. good to have you here."

nickt says, "Hi Nick- we met in Atlanta"

Deena says, "Nick"

nm says, "yes, good to be in MOOspace with you now"

Deena says, "Hi Julianne"

nickt high fives Julianne

Julianne says, "Hi Deena and everybody!"

RobKendall says, "hi Julianne. is that Julianne Chatelaine?"

Julianne says, "Yes Rob, it's me"

RobKendall says, "great to have you here."

Julianne says, "thanks Rob, and hi Nick! anxious to hear more about the project"

nickt says, "brb- going to change my name"

tombell quietly enters.

Deena says, "Yes, could you guys describe the database?"

nickt says, "@exit"

RobKendall says, "hi Tom. nice to have you here in the fray"

MD quietly enters.

kheintz takes a seat on the edge of the room.

RobKendall says, "hi kurt"

kheintz says, "hi, rob!"

NickTraenkner quietly enters.

Deena says, "Wow we have quite a crowd here."

tombell says, "hi all"

NickTraenkner waves

Deena says, "Nick and Rob are going to talk about the ELO database, and ow it will work."

Deena says, "These guys are incredible programmers, and have taken a lot of work on the database."

Deena says, "This database is in conjunction with the Electronic Literature Organization"

SStephanie quietly enters.

Deena says, "Nick, Rob, can you describe the database?"

RobKendall says, "sure"

tombell says, "will this just be print lit or will it include web art"

RobKendall says, "The ELO Directory is a listing of electronic literature that we hope will eventually become comprehensive. It currently contains the entire contents of the Word Circuits Directory, plus a few additions. We're in the process now of cleaning up the data and finishing the programming, and the directory should be ready for public browsing in perhaps a few weeks. We are also creating a data-entry system that will let authors and publishers create accounts and add listings of works they have written or published. This stage of the directory is further from completion, and it's hard to say when it will be functional."

Deena says, "Yes, what will be welcomed in the database?"

RobKendall says, "it will accommodate anything that could be described as literature"

Eve says, "Kind of a library of congress for ebooks?"

RobKendall says, "The directory is open to any work that is published on disk or on the Web and makes use of electronic enhancements that distinguish it from printed work. When entering a work in the directory, an author clicks check boxes to specify whether the work uses particular techniques or enhancements."

Deena says, "This sounds very comprehensive."

Deena says, "So electronic enhancements would be links, art, etc?"

NickTraenkner says, "The forms for work entry are available at the URL given by Deena"

RobKendall says, "let me outline the specific elements that we're looking for in work"

Deena says, "Yes, you can go to the general elit chat links at the side of the screen to click on the prototype."

RobKendall says, "The first set of options concerns audio/video elements:"

Deena says, "The URL is" [Editor's note: this URL was available only for the chat and demonstration testing. The database will be available on the Electronic Literature site.]

RobKendall says, "oops, the system isn't posting the stuff i'm typing in"

RobKendall says, "let me try again"

Eve grins

margie quietly enters.

NickTraenkner says, "I think when one selects the chat links it pushes you out of this room"

margie says, "hi? in the right place?"

nm says, "exactly"

Deena says, "Yes, you can open up a new window in your browser and type in"

Eve says, "it certainly appears to"

Deena says, "Hi all, we are talking about the ELO database "

nm shares a URL...


Deena says, "Nick, what kinds of information will people be asked for"

RobKendall says, "The first set of options concerns audio/video elements: audio of text being read, other use of audio, video of text being performed, other use of video"

NickTraenkner says, "beautiful!"

Deena Hooray! and points to the side of the screen

kheintz says, "we were worrying about seeing that before.""

margie says, "what is example reports?"

RobKendall says, "The next set concerns "cybertext" elements: hypertext, other interactive techniques, kinetic (moving or morphing) text, algorithmically generated text"

RobKendall says, "The final option is reader collaboration, which is any method for allowing readers to actually add their own text to the work."

NickTraenkner says, "example reports are a prototype of the browsing feature of the directory filled with the current data (which is kind of dirty at the moment)"

Eve says, "hmm, the little help checkboxes appear to be bad links (at that url, after the author's entry link)"

margie says, "huh?"

Deena says, "So we can enter sound, cybertext elements, etc."

RobKendall says, "The work must contain one of these elements to be included in the directory."

Deena says, "Can we enter art or graphic elements"

NickTraenkner says, "yes, the example forms aren't fully functional"

NickTraenkner blushes

Deena says, "But they show what data would be asked for."

Eve says, "whoops sorry:)"

Deena says, "Are there other data that should be asked for? What do you guys think?"

kheintz says, "the help checkboxes do need to be linked. On the demo on the eliterature domain, they are."

RobKendall says, "also, the publishers form needs to be update so that the fields correspond to the fields in the works form"

RobKendall says, "My question for you is: Have we have covered all our bases here? Would the categories we have established be adequate to handle your own work and to let you sort out the works of others in the way that would be most useful to you? Are there any categories we should add? Keep in mind that we don't want the data-entry form to become too complex, or people will balk at filling it out."

Deena says, "If you click on the form at the left side of the screen, you will see the information asked for."

Deena says, "Rob, can you post a list of the categories that you have already?"

margie says, "how can we get back?"

Julianne says, "I appreciate the listing of collaborators such as programmers etc. and to have that prominent - very thoughtful & helpful"

Deena says, "Press the back button on your browser"

kheintz says, "for the purposes of this discussion, use your browser's Back function. (click in the window to set focus there, then use "Back")"

margie says, "no, I mean in the right window here"

Deena says, "I would like to see a short paragraph of description for each work. Would there be a list of keywords we can search on?"

nm says, "Rob, would conversational characters and works with a text-adventure interface get classified as "other interactive techniques" or "algorithmically generated text"?"

RobKendall says, "Deena, here's the list, which i don't think came through the first time i typed it: The first set of options concerns audio/video elements: audio of text being read, other use of audio, video of text being performed, other use of video. The next set concerns "cybertext" elements: hypertext ,other interactive techniques, kinetic (moving or morphing) text, algorithmically generated text. The final option is reader collaboration, which is any method for allowing readers to actually add their own text to the work."

kheintz says, "... Back is also a right-click menu item for Windows users."

RobKendall says, "We are further categorizing works by genre (poetry, fiction, drama, and personal narrative) and by length (short, long, collection of short works). When an entry in the directory is displayed for the viewer, the title will be followed by an automatically generated description such as this: "Collection of short poetry. Hypertext, reader collaboration." Viewers of the directory will be able to select works that fall into one or more of the categories above. For example, they could opt to look at only long hypertext fiction or only short poetry with audio of the text being read."

Eve says, "the works form, the very bottom says select all that apply I think you might want a different way to do it- can only select one, or a direct line as is (sorry I'm only commenting on little mechanical stuff so far)"

Deena says, "Eve, that is a good point, particularly with blended media. So many pieces have a LOT of different elements"

RobKendall says, "text adventure type things would probably be both other interaction and algorithmically generated"

nm says, "however readers do add their own text as they read the word"

kheintz says, "actually the select all does work, but you need to CTRL-click to do it. That's how browsers work for these items, I believe."

NickTraenkner says, "yes"

Deena says, "Rob, would this database include books that were transferred from print to electronic readers?"

Eve says, "ah, I see. I could use shift to get several in a row, but couldn't figure out two with a space between. My mistake :)"

NickTraenkner says, "CTRL selecting a selected item will deselect it in windows maybe option select on mac"

RobKendall says, "yes, books transferred from print would be included if electronic elements were added to them, such as audio or interaction"

Deena says, "Will there be a way to enter keywords for a search?"

tombell says, "would one post a 'work' or url or both?"

Deena says, "so that if I were looking for works about peace or gambling, I could also do a subject search"

NickTraenkner says, "sure this is not difficult"

RobKendall says, "eventually you will be able to do full text searches on all fields. most searching will be done by selecting specific field values, though"

NickTraenkner says, "the subject search would more than likely go against the description of the work"

Julianne says, "(still loving the form) I can think of some more technologies employed - game type tech - or is that too far afield for ELO org?"

Deena says, "I think the keyword search would help a great deal, not only for subject but for descriptive works."

RobKendall says, "the database won't contain actual works--just urls and descriptions"

kheintz says, "On some drafts versions of these pages, we had general searches, where you'd fill in a name and the server would look it up. Simple as that."

Deena says, "So the work would have to have a URL associated with it to be accessed? What about disk based works?"

RobKendall says, "disk based work will be included as well--in those cases the only urls would be to catalog descriptions or online samples"

Eve says, "url directing to where to get the disk, I should think..."

Deena says, "How would you use this database,?"

Deena says, "Rob, perhaps there could be a space for an address, ISBN number, etc if the work is not associated with a URL"

nm says, ""I think listing natural language understanding as a 'technique and enhancement' would be very helpful. This would describe those works that accepted interactive text and replied to it based on some type of parsing or pattern-matching"

RobKendall says, "Julianne, 'game-type' interfaces is a little vague. i'm hoping these types of interfaces could be covered by our current categories"

kheintz says, "Eve... or an address where you could write for the disk, too."

tombell says, "my mind boggles for today. bye all"

Deena says, "See you Tom. Be sure to check out the ELO site for this"

Eve nods.

Eve says, "right"

RobKendall says, "each work will be linked to a publisher record, which will contain the publisher's web site url, phone, and mailing address"

Eve says, "Bye, Tombell"

tombell has disconnected.

Deena says, "Rob, can the author and publisher both create a record?"

RobKendall says, "yes. we're working on ways to prevent them from getting in each others way, so that a publisher can create a record for a work she's published and then the author can come by later and edit it"

margie says, "this is going to be a great resource!"

Deena says, "April_Guest, Guest182, others, would you be able to use a database like this? What would you search for?"

NickTraenkner says, "We have planned that an author will have a list of people who can edit their entries- an author will be able to select (or de-select) anyone in that list to stop them from having access to that authors data"

Deena says, "I would probably be looking for either specific works I had heard about, or keep checking back to see what was new.""

Deena says, "Nick that is a really good safety feature."

Deena says, "But what if I wanted to append a review of a work? Or to see if others liked that work?"

RobKendall says, "when you search the directory, you'll be able to pull up only work added in last month or two, if you wish"

margie says, "this is a great feature"

Deena says, "So you can search entries by date."

NickTraenkner says, "yes the date search isn't working yet"

kheintz gets a little less passive in the conversation.

Deena says, "That will be very helpful"

RobKendall says, "adding reviews and recommendations is a feature we will add in the future, but it is going to take a lot of careful work to implement properly"

Deena welcomes all comments and ideas. Passes kheintz a light bulb.

kheintz says, "Deena, do you think a What's New? feature would be useful in the Directory?"

kheintz says, "A way to see the latest additions in a glance?"

margie says, "I think we will be well served even by the simplest list for now!"

Julianne says, "Agree w/ Margie"

Deena says, "Yes, that is a good idea. It would have to be maintained, and maybe this could be done automatically--a page showing what had been listed in the last week or month."

Eve says, "genre I should think would be another one that would be useful, outside of keywords- least I don't think I see it on there yet"

RobKendall says, "there will also eventually be a mailing list alerting people to what's new in the directory"

Deena says, "Yes, Margie, the main thing is to get something like this up and running!"

margie says, "oh, do we have to, Eve?"

NickTraenkner says, "I've implemented automated what's new features before and they tend to be empty more than not (unless this database will be particularly active)"

Deena passes out running shoes

Deena says, "Eve, would Rob's genre list work for the page you are thinking about?"

RobKendall says, "eve, do you mean genre as in "romance" or "mystery"?"

NickTraenkner says, "an option to "show newest works first" is more practical maybe?"

Eve says, "Whoops, I think I missed the genre list"

margie says, "We need to realize that this is not Yahoo, in some senses, but a small community, working with just a few programmers!"

kheintz says, "Seems to be what Deena's thinking of, Nick."

nm says, "I didn't get any reaction to my suggestion that natural-language interface be a checkbox, so there is something that describes, say, Pinsky's Mindwheel, Thomas Disch's Amnesia, and Eliza aptly. I think it's rather important unless you want to down play those sort of works in the database"

Deena says, "Nick, yes showing newest works would be good, but it would help to have a page I could always bookmark with the latest stuff"

Eve says, "But yes I meant mystery, romance, sci-fi, whatever. Some in multiple categories, but for example, I avoid horror, wouldn't want to have to sift thru everything to not get it"

Julianne looks for the genre panic button

Deena says, "Yes, Margie, let's work on just getting it up. And dream about how we would expand later"

kheintz [to nm]: Noted about natural language...

margie says, "I thought you meant Gender. Learn to read, Margie!"

RobKendall says, "nm, a natural language interface might be a good idea if there were enough works that used them to warrant it"

Eve says, "*laugh* I couldn't care less about gender `;)"

nm says, "126 text adventure games were released last year"

Deena says, "Eve, maybe we could work with genre through the keywords again. So that people put it in a description. Many of these works cross traditional genres, or at least play with them to the extent that they are unrecognizable."

margie says, "that's a huge amount, we don't want to clog the database, no?"

nm says, "and literary conversational bots are a big focus of Janet Murray's work"

Deena says, "Margie, I think the more the merrier. How much can this database handle?"

Eve says, "yes, as long as everyone puts it in *smile* I would just hate to miss something because I didn't want to go through everything there was (it looks like this is going to be extremely large) but it wasn't under something I thought to check"

Deena says, "yes, I think bots and text games would have a place in the database."

margie says, "My preference would be toward the literary--but who is doing the filtering, Rob?"

RobKendall says, "most people wouldn't consider text adventures literature. but then maybe we should add a genre field and they could be listed under mystery or action or thriller or whatever"

Deena says, "Right. Could we put in a line on the entry form to describe the genre?"

guest182 says, "For this directory to be more than simply an interesting exercise, it seems like you'd want to get as much content into it as possible. Then, make sure your categories all someone to view with sufficient narrowness."

nm says, "not all of those 126 are literary efforts, but that number includes some stunning work by published novelists"

Deena thumbs through a dictionary wildly to find the definitive definition of literature

NickTraenkner says, "reloading database..."

Julianne admires the graphic design, and the cunning attempts to get form-fillers to use the online help

NickTraenkner says, "ahhh that feels better..."

guest182 says, "Try "Interactive Fiction" for "text adventure". It captures the spirit of what many of the authors are trying to do."

nm says, "that's my preferred term, actually"

Deena says, "Adding a genre field would be a good idea so we can separate text adventure, etc."

NickTraenkner says, "Interactive Fiction is a pretty established genre don't you think?"

Eve says, "I still haven't played any recently that are up to the old zork standards, but will keep looking"

margie says, "but then all the real interactive fiction narrative would be lost-lost"

kheintz says, "In putting this together, we've been pulled between two poles. One being that any kind of literature in electronic media qualifies as electronic literature, and the other pole being that the electronic component necessarily must amplify or set the work apart from paper-based works."

Deena says, "Margie, how would we lose the interactive fiction narrative? "

margie says, "if it were all put in with gaming Deena--imagine one little Dis Rain in 139 games."

nm says, "recent IF (interactive fiction) includes works with contemporary, non-fantastic settings that are clearly in the literary fiction genre (however well or poorly written they might be)."

RobKendall says, "problem is, if we allowed games, we would have to include every game on disk, too, because they could fall under the categories of action/adventure, or whatever. filtering is a tricky problem"

guest182 says, "Hmm. I've been reading for years, and its main focus is text adventure-type works. What makes 'real' interactive fiction in your opinion, margie?"

Deena says, "Yes, it is difficult to distinguish between electronic media and electronic lit and electronic art and games and and and"

Eve says, "so you're thinking not to have the simple ebooks, that are just books in electronic format? No fancy extra stuff with them?"

RobKendall says, "we could end up being overwhelmed by commercial material"

nm says, "not much of a risk with text-based IF!"

Deena says, "Is there any way to have the commercial material in the database and design search engines to find the cutting edge stuff?"

kheintz says, "Exactly, Rob. If we set the criteria too broadly, the Directory become just another Yahoo thing."

margie says, "There is a difference between a game and a story, although they might both be interactive and fictive. See Bolter, etc."

NickTraenkner says, "I remember reading some of Photopia and award winner IF some years back- it was clearly literature to me"

nm says, "excellent example"

Deena says, "will the criteria be clearly defined and put at the front page of the database?"

NickTraenkner says, "more coffee brb..."

Deena says, "Some would even argue for Myst and Raven and etc."

RobKendall says, "eve, we're excluding anything that could be done in print just because there are tens of thousands of those things on disk or online"

Deena passes out the extra strength coffee and the power jolts

kheintz [to Deena]: Good idea! Put the criteria up front.

RobKendall says, "we'll have to think very carefully about the genre and games issues"

Deena says, "So the main distinction here is electronically enhanced--or that it somehow intrinsically depends on electrons to get the point across?"

RobKendall says, "yes, Deena, the inclusion criteria will be spelled out up front and in the data entry forms as well"

NickTraenkner says, "I'm back"

Deena says, "Welcome back, we missed you :)"

kheintz says, "I foresee a lot of debate on that very topic... games as e-fiction, or games v.s e-fiction."

guest182 says, "Eve: as far as Zork quality adventures, check out some of the stuff that's been done in the past 2-3 years."

Deena says, "How will the database be advertised? How will we get authors and publishers to enter their works?"

Chaco Guest arrives.

RobKendall says, "yes, electronically enhanced is the key. perhaps in the future we'll include all electronically published work, but we don't have the resources to handle that now"

Deena says, "Hi, we are talking about the ELO database, and the criteria needed to get into the database."

nm says, "We could have a sort of literature Turing test."

Julianne laughs hysterically

margie says, "I think we need to consider the audience we are trying to reach. Obviously no category is going to be totally right, but we ought to look at the quality of the whole--"

Deena says, "How will the Turing test work?"

guest182 says, "Don't dismiss "text adventures" just because they had their origin in games. Just as interesting literature comes out of genre fiction, real literature is coming out of text adventures."

kheintz considers whether Turing = Litmus.

nm says, "Can the person on the other end tell if it's literature or not?"

Deena says, "Right. What are the audiences that this will need"

RobKendall says, "if we include games, the search criteria will allow people to filter them out if they don't want to see them. a bigger problem is just dealing with the vast quantity of them. yes, some could be considered literature, but it is hard to classify things by the quality of the writing alone."

Deena says, "That this will reach?"

Deena says, "Will there be filters on the electronic material?"

margie says, "It seems to me that the gaming folks already have their own communities, and we are not trying to compete with them--"

nm says, "To start off with, it"

Deena says, "I think that this will be somewhat self-selecting--gamers would have to find the site and put it in"

Eve2 arrives.

Eve2 says, "sorry lost my connection and wouldn't let me back in *laugh*"

margie says, "Oh, I think they will find the sites--that isn't the issue"

nm says, "oops ... it's hard to see how an all-text work, with characters, setting, and a plot, shouldn't be considered for the database. With all-graphical works it is a tricker question"

kheintz says, "At the risk of setting some people off here, I think games (for the moment) beget a really gray area where we don't have enough people to scrutinize/review works to be admitted to the Directory."

guest182 says, "On nm's point, how do you determine if something is a "game?""

Deena says, "How will other works be scrutinized and reviewed?"

nm says, "Deena, good point. There's not too much outreach from IF/text adventures to the literary community as it is, and commercial companies could care even less"

Deena says, "Or will every entry be entered into the database?"

margie says, "this is a far more complicated question than a two-finger answer!!"

Deena says, "Yes, it seems that scrutinizing every entry would take a small army!"

RobKendall says, "there won't be any formal review process that screens out work that is inappropriate. If we find something that obviously doesn't belong, we will take it out, though, after contacting the person who added it."

Deena says, "What do you guys think about a review process?""

Eve2 says, "I'm sorry, I think I missed the answer to my earlier question when my link went down- are you planning on letting books that are in electronic format but just like paper-published books be included in this or no?"

Deena says, "eve, we're excluding"

NickTraenkner says, "updating database..."

RobKendall says, "eve, no there won't be books that could appear in print without any real differences from the e version"

Eve2 says, "*nod* Got it. Sorry, just lost link when you were saying."

kheintz says, "Something about being ''e-'' has to qualify a work for inclusion."

kheintz says, "It should not be a e-copy of something in print, though."

RobKendall says, "the recommendations system will be very important, once that is implemented. it will help readers winnow the contents down to size and more easily find what they would be interested in"

Eve2 says, "Right, but most of the ebooks I have seem, the e seems to mean that they are in electronic format and can be read on the computer"

Deena says, "Perhaps we can invite reviews of the works in the database so that people can judge them."

nm says, "I think the issue of a review process is best handled at the author level ... being ELO-listed doesn't creditial your work, it's a sort of service for authors. Let the authors who are approved list what they want"

Julianne says, "I now see from this chat how complex the subject is "

nm says, "If the database is abused, talk to the abuser"

RobKendall says, "yes we are going to invite reviews and recommendations of the works we list"

Deena says, "yes, Eve, the vast majority of ebooks are print transferred to electronic. There are places that do list these and work with ebooks. "

NickTraenkner says, "hooray! publishers are now listed properly on the example directory browser"

Chaco_Guest says, "if it's just a database listing items, I'm not sure how it could be 'abused'."

RobKendall says, "by abused, she means adding works that shouldn't be there"

Eve2 says, "this being the case, I'm a trifle surprised that there's a question about interactive fiction- it seems to me to be exactly what you mean... Sorry if I'm missing something- I'm new to the whole field."

kheintz says, "Chaco, it can be abused by anyone who chooses to flood it with spurious entries. The key is to keep the database on topic."

Julianne says, "If you want to save bandwidth (and also encourage people to read these), let's set up a review area for e-literature at a rep mgt place like epinions. People can link from those reviews to the ELO DIR and to the works themselves. They've already instrumented it for that..."

Chaco_Guest says, "but why would anyone want to do that?"

Deena says, "yes, margie, can we go back to the distinction between interactive fiction and games?"

RobKendall says, "free publicity"

NickTraenkner says, "Julianne- that might require some standardization between the two sites"

Deena says, "Eve, there are a lot of works that now use the abilities in the computer to advance their meaning. They use links, graphics, sound, etc and finally you just can't read them linearly.\"

Julianne says, "Ah, hmm, right"

kheintz [to Chaco_Guest]: Self-promotion... publicity... to feel important or create a false reputation? All valid things.

guest182 says, "Deena: So, linearity is a requirement for literature?"

Chaco_Guest says, "I guess"

NickTraenkner says, "too bad we don't have ISBNs or Library of Congress numbers"

Deena says, "Margie just did a Progressive Diner Party, which showcased 39 women authors of these works. The link is also in the general chat links"

Chaco_Guest says, "it sounds like this isn't intended to be complete, is it?"

kheintz [to Chaco_Guest]: Valid, that is, if one is out to get a name without doing the work.

Chaco_Guest says, "given that it was mentioned above over not having space to categorize everything"

Eve2 says, "I'll check it out in a bit."

Deena says, "Oh ouch. I hope linearity is NOT a requirement for literature. But there are so few definitions right now. I think we need to expand the definition of literature to include these art-texts, hyper-texts with links, etc."

margie says, "Linearity is not a requirement for literature--but non-linearity, or multi-linearity is a feature of electronic hypertext lit."

Deena says, "Rob, how do we get the free publicity?"

RobKendall says, "chaco, i'm sorry, i'm not following you, could you restate your question?"

nm says, "The thing I was hoping is that this database could bring together people from hypertext and people from IF who are both genuinely interested in creating good electronic literature. I just wanted to offer a categorization scheme that aided that. I don't think abuse by IF authors is any more a problem, inherently, than abuse by hypertext authors."

Deena says, "Julianne, I like the idea of setting up a review area. This could be tied to the entries in the database."

guest182 says, "Margie: non-linearity is a property of purely text-based, natural-language interface literature."

margie says, "Who would do the reviews?"

Deena says, "NM, could you define IF again, please?"

RobKendall says, "one question we're wrestling with now is, when we let people review works in the database, do we permit negative reviews or only positive recommendations?"

guest182 says, "Margie: er, as well."

Julianne says, "(1) imho, 'literary aspirations' seems to be the key for me. if a text-game has literary aspirations (as defined by the author or assessed by a thoughtful experience) we can list it here. OR if a literary author writes a text adventure, ELO would want to list that, I think, no matter what. "

margie says, "guest 182, I meant to type multi-linearity"

Chaco_Guest says, "possibly i am unclear on the entry procedures. I thought every work had to be added by an approved person, hence the attempt to not allow everything due to lack of people's time"

Deena says, "Rob, I think we need to have both, although I have read of cases where people put in negative reviews for personal spite."

guest182 says, "Rob: I would find a site that didn't allow potential negative criticism to be not particularly useful. I still cling to the notion of wanting "quality" in my literature."

nm says, "I sometimes use the term IF to talk about hypertext, Cortazar's Hopscotch, and text-adventure type stuff, but here I mean Interactive Fiction as a work where the reader types in language that is understood and influences the course of events. As in Pinsky's Mindwheel."

Eve2 says, "I would permit positive and negative but neither flaming nor useless pats on the back. This is great, or This sucks, are both pretty useless reviews"

Julianne says, "Rob, re reviews, what we do at NYRSF is either positive reviews OR reviews of things that have interesting elements - no reviews that are nothing but trashing."

Deena says, "Yes, could you clarify how one becomes an approved person to put up entries?"

Deena says, "Julianne, what is NYRSF?"

kheintz [to kheintz]: zot!

Deena says, "So, Eve, there should be some control over the reviews. Website discretion?"

RobKendall says, "Deena, we're wonder whether authors would stop cooperating with us to maintain their records if they started getting negative reviews attached to their work. after all, we're intending to serve the author's needs"

Julianne says, "Sorry, NYRSF = New York Review of Science Fiction, criticism of imaginative literature (SF or fantasy or ??), Kathryn Cramer is one of the editors"

Deena says, "Julianne, those are good criteria for a review monitoring system"

margie says, "Doesn't IF include clicking?"

nm says, "I like the 'Open Workshop' idea suggested by the form much better than the idea of ELO-sponsored reviews ... the database can just be an index of literature (of whatever quality) and other sites and entities can decide what's 'good enough.'"

Deena says, "Is IF an abbreviation for interactive fiction?"

Chaco_Guest says, "clicking?"

Deena says, "yes, the open workshop sounds a lot simpler too"

Deena hands out occam's razors and begins shaving

nm says, "margie, I use the term that way sometimes, but I'm using it in the sense of Infocom's "Interactive Fiction" now - text produced by computer, text entered by reader, story progresses"

Julianne says, "I'd say, let the reviews on the ELO site be edited or curated in some way - BUT also set up a more free-form critique area on something like epinions - with the caveat Nick raised (I don't think there would have to be lots of formal integration)"

nm says, "Deena, sorry, yes, IF = Interactive Fiction"

margie says, "I guess the term has come to be narrowed considerably by Infocom, eh?"

RobKendall says, "anyone will be able to add an entry to the database. there is no approval process"

kheintz [to Deena]: You ~like~ being animated in these chats, don't you? ;)

Deena says, "So I think the term interactive fiction then really means two different things--fiction where the reader interacts by clicking and fiction where the story progresses with many different writer adding material"

Julianne says, "P.S. this "what is it" discussion just demonstrates how interesting / this whole field is / these questions are"

nm says, "Margie, they sort of coined it, so one could say 'IF' has been broadened since then"

RobKendall says, "we will also allow anyone to add reviews, though we will distinguish between reader reviews (such as those at and reviews by people we invite to write them"

Julianne says, "Rob, that sounds perfect"

nm says, "Deena, actually in Infocom's use it means neither"

margie says, "Funny, how there are groups all over using a name, and claiming they coined it? Using it definitely, too, eh?"

Deena says, "Rob, that sounds good. "

nm says, "Deena, it refers to a text-adventure style interface where a single reader types what the main character is to do, and the computer reacts with text"

Deena says, "Rob, we will have to DEFINE all of the genres, or we will end up with more same word problems like interactive fiction"

Eve2 nods agreement with nm

kheintz says, "Margie, goes to show how far the Directory could set the record straight. Having one place to coin/set/use a term in a definitive way will give us all some power over the work."

margie says, "Yep-we have to make sure that the searcher has a clue about what he is looking for"

Julianne says, "Also, I think getting the basic database up is more important than reviews, initially. Let's not sink them with requirements before release 1 ..."

Deena light bulbs dance overhead as Deena thinks about the text based d&D games she played in her misspent youth.

guest182 says, "If you try to assume too much power by fiat over the terms, though, you will likely alienate some of your potential audience, many of whom will have strong opinions."

Julianne shakes herself, trying to get out of software development mode

nm says, "this is why I didn't start off using the term. But 'text adventure' sounds like it's resigned to being a campy genre work"

Deena says, "Good point, guest 182. "

RobKendall says, "yes Deena everything will be defined. you can't see it in the sample versions, but the entry forms will all have comprehensive help files that will define all of the categorization terms we are using"

margie says, "182, this is true, especially if critics have used the term differently, like Aarseth, etc."

RobKendall says, "Julianne, reviews will be a future addition, as i say"

nm says, "Julianne, I agree that the DB goal is first, and what to do about reviews can be tackled separately"

Deena says, "So could we say that these are the terms this site uses, other sites use different terms, or do we do more need to unalienate audiences?"

kheintz says, "Not sure it's a power trip, actually, being a Fiat over words... Rather, by suggesting that people start sharing language, we can encourage comparisons where false (or unwitting) novelty was once supposed."

Julianne awards Margie the First Mention of Aarseth In This Chat prize

Adrian politely enters, and apologies for being late..

margie says, "hi adrian"

Deena says, "Hi Adrian, we are talking ab out how reviewers can be incorporated into the ELO database, and what to do about different terms"

Adrian says, "hey, margie good to see you"

Deena hands Adrian a cup of coffee.

Adrian says, "thanks Deena"

nm says, "no one had strong opinions about 'natural language understanding interface' ... it does lump Eliza in with 'IF,' but it seems less difficult of a term"

Adrian says, "reviews? or reviewers? and the full text of a review?"

Deena says, "Sharing language is a good idea. yet it is so easy to just glom onto the term and think it means what you thought it meant...."

Deena says, "reviews. "

NickTraenkner says, "i have lots of questions but they are very close to our 'release schedule' eeeagh!"

Deena has visions of squashed reviewers dancing overhead

Adrian decides to listen for a bit

margie says, "Nick, when is the release?"

Deena says, "Nick, can we help you with some of the questions?"

RobKendall says, "the central problem with creating any directory is that you have to define your terms of exclusion clearly and realize that there will always be gray areas. something that is all-inclusive is useless--all inclusive meaning containing every object in the universe"

Deena pulls out her one to one scale map of the universe and consults it anxiously

nm says, "Rob and Nick, I should mention that the forms look very slick and I think the DB is going to be a great resource. I'm just harping on those categories because I have deep concern for this in my work"

margie says, "the thing about this medium is that almost no categories are clear, everything porous--found that out in the Progressive Dinner Party."

guest182 says, "kheintz: Good point. But you can't just dismiss all the connotations that terms have acquired. Also, the shared language needs to propagate back out to the communities at large, or you just end up a fringe."

Adrian agrees with Rob, "otherwise it just won't work"

RobKendall says, "adrian there will be links to reviews published elsewhere and the full text of reviews written by us and readers if the directory"

Deena says, "And most e authors are playing with genres and blurring the terms deliberately"

NickTraenkner says, "no, actually its something kurt and rob and scott and i need to talk about"

nm says, "I'm not trying to point to a single example, like Reagan Library, and say 'look! doesn't fit! scrap the categories!' It's just there are hundreds of serious literary efforts that end up in catch-all categories as it's set up now"

kheintz says, "guest182: Correct also. But you can't reach the crisis where an expression has to undergo mitosis (split into two distinct meanings) unless you start using it."

Adrian says, "and this will be searchable? so not another list of web sites but an index?"

Deena says, "I think the forms work pretty well and the data b ase will be useful. Just having any somewhat comprehensive list will be incredible"

NickTraenkner says, "it will be searchable"

margie says, "--wow, nm, is Regan IF"

Deena says, "nm, I think you are right, that a lot of stuff will just be miscellaneous. Can we do defacto user defined categories?"

Adrian says, "i assume people have recognized that if you add new terms later then earlier work that hasn't used that term will sort of become 'invisible'?"

RobKendall says, "nm, anything that is a serious literary effort will go in the database, no matter what"

kheintz says, "The idea is that some definitions, for better or worse, will have to set a beginning agenda. After that, we can modify, detail, or expand the terms as we see fit. Having the seed of some definition (actually ANY kind of definition) will naturally start spark such a debate."

margie says, "Rob, are you going to be screening each piece?"

Deena says, "no, actually, Adrian, I forgot about that bit. good point. How will we handle retroactive genre naming?"

NickTraenkner says, "it's a relational database updatable from the web with a user account"

guest182 says, "kheintz: Agreed. regarding "text adventure"-style interactive fiction, I think nm's term "natural language interface" is a good one."

Deena says, "Wow, screening each piece would be a lot of work. But how will authors and publishers be approved to add things into the database?"

kheintz says, "guest182: agreed with you, too."

RobKendall says, "no margie, we won't have the resources to screen everything"

Adrian says, "screening? as in editorial control? would let you have a common set of terms. is a lot of work"

Eve2 says, "I would be more likely to pick up something called interactive fiction than natural language interface, just because I'd find the term daunting, myself"

Deena says, "kheintz, I think that the debates sparked will be fast and furious, and wildfires about terminology will blaze out of anyone's control very quickly."

margie says, "then will the authors themselves decide criteria, assign search categories?"

NickTraenkner says, "its not difficult for works to require a 'go-ahead' from a directory administrator to go public"

LawrenceClark arrives.

RobKendall says, "authors and publishers will just visit the web site and fill out a form to create an account"

Julianne waves to Larry

NickTraenkner waves

Deena says, "Eve, I think those terms are daunting too. But would everyone be looking at these terms, or would they be searching with words that they entered into the search engine?"

LawrenceClark says, "howdy, folks!"

margie says, "hi Lawrence!"

kheintz says, "Ah, the potential of controversy, Deena!"

Deena says, "Rob, how will authors and publishers be vetted or reviewed?"

LawrenceClark says, "did we just start or am I an hour late?"

nm says, "the latter"

RobKendall says, "also, keep in mind that there will be a text field for descriptions, so if something doesn't fit the categories precisely, it can be explained further here"

Deena says, "Hi Larry, we are talking about the ELO database and how authors will be screened."

LawrenceClark says, "oops"

guest182 says, "Eve2: then perhaps file it under both categories. Interactive fiction is the umbrella for the three classes that have been mentioned so far, and distinctions are then drawn within it."

LawrenceClark says, "thanks, Deena"

Deena hands over her own screwy time watch with a built in time warp

Eve2 says, "saying eve is fine- I'm her too, only couldn't get back on her when my link died *grin* So no need for the 2 :)"

NickTraenkner says, ""

nm says, "I'm beginning to buy Espen's arguments about the term 'interactive fiction'"

Adrian says, "the category times in the database, can someone select multiple options/genres to describe their entry?"

Deena says, "Filing under multiple categories seems to be the best answer."

NickTraenkner says, "IF=text-adventure in Aarseth?"

margie says, "but if we lump IF and short stories, the reader is still up a creek-"

Eve2 says, "*nod* Probably multiple categories would be the way to go."

Julianne awards nm the Prize for First Use of Espen Aarseth's First Name In This Chat

nm says, "no, Aarseth just hates the term IF "

Adrian says, "any piece will fit several categories, surely?"

RobKendall says, "yes, you can select as many options at once as you want. you can select fiction and other interaction--or you can select fiction, hypertext, other interaction, and audio"

Deena says, "Wait, how do we lump IF and short stories? "

NickTraenkner says, "ah, ok"

nm says, "Rob, and that's good, because hypertext can have natural language interfaces"

Adrian says, "and what about writers who don't know the terminology?"

Deena says, "Fiction covers many genres such as mystery, sci fi romance. Need two genre categories, one for subject and one for structure"

margie says, "Deena, then what are we calling short fiction that is interactive?"

nm says, "We can gloss our terms on the page, you know"

Adrian nods

nm says, "With links"

kheintz agrees that a gloss is a good idea.

Deena says, "Gloss the terms. Because now I think IF is text adventure, not interactive fiction."

LawrenceClark says, "a glossary is a good idea, nm"

Adrian nods to Nick, "of course"

NickTraenkner says, "like the non-functioning help pop-ups?"

nm says, "exactly!"

Deena draws circles around similar terms and becomes even more hopelessly confused

Deena says, "Yes, pop-ups that show what we think the term means.i"

LawrenceClark says, "yes, many works could fall under several categories"

kheintz says, "So we want to expand or refine our definitions in the Help pop-up windows, yes?"

Adrian says, "so what constants are there for the database? author/s, title, url?"

RobKendall says, "all the form categories will be defined by popup help"

Deena says, "Yes, please."

NickTraenkner says, "I noticed the classifications are centered around technique and 'technological techniques' rather than 'literary terms' might this be part of the confusion (if there is confusion?)"

Deena says, "Rob, aren't the descriptions and genre classifications constants too?"

RobKendall says, "adrian, you can see the form at" [Editor's note: this URL was available only for the chat and demonstration testing. The database will be available on the Electronic Literature site.]

Deena says, "Right Nick. We need to separate and include technique and literary terms as two different items."

Julianne thinks that if readers start arguing with the definitions in the popup help, that will just make the database more fun for us (at least initially)

LawrenceClark says, "good idea, Deena"

Adrian says, "thanks"

Deena imagines popup punch and judy shows

LawrenceClark says, "ouch"

margie says, "Maybe easier to define the technique in the beginning-so much harder to do lit terms."

RobKendall says, "Deena what sort of literary terms do you mean?"

Julianne says, "Agree w/ Margie that technique is easier to define"

Adrian says, "Nick? is the url a new dns? i can't get it, no dns?"

kheintz makes a note to himself about JavaScript for puppetry's sake.

NickTraenkner says, "how often do you all see techniques changing/expanding?"

Julianne says, "Nick, often, but they're still easier to describe"

LawrenceClark says, "yes, margie, because aren't many of us trying to blur the distinctions between literary genres anyway?"

Deena says, "Yes, maybe the lit terms should be voluntary--or included in the general description. But as Eve said, if she is looking for mystery, she doesn't want horror, so how can we help her find the works that will interest her?"

NickTraenkner says, "it should work- others are getting it no?"

Adrian says, "not often, but what happens when someone like espen introduces another new term, ergodic or cybertext mkII and then we all go, aha, that's what it is?"

Deena says, "We don't read these things for the technique, we read them for the message and enjoyment"

LawrenceClark says, "Nick, can a work be listed under more than one genre?"

Julianne says, "Deena:...or because we can't help ourselves..."

Eve2 has no idea what ergodic is *grin*

Eve2 says, "don't mind me"

Deena says, "Right, and then we would have to retro fit the database to find the ergodic works. Or the puppetry works."

NickTraenkner says, "not currently but its not difficult- this is a question for Rob :)"

RobKendall says, "aarseth's term cybertext can be broken down into the techniques we outline: hypertext, other interaction, algorithmic generation, kinetic text"

Deena flips frantically through her dictionary and still has no idea what ergodic is.

Julianne awards Eve the First Person To Ask What Ergodic Is prize - it's a nice umbrella for dealing with neologisms

kheintz [to Deena]: Don't push your luck, kiddo! Rewriting for puppetry... :D

Adrian says, "yes I know Rob, but a new terms will come that will retrospectively let us see a better system of classification. is that a problem?"

Deena says, "yes, works HAVE to be listed in much more than one genre. (thinking of Disappearing rain, which is hypertext, poetry, mystery, and graphics at the same time)"

NickTraenkner says, "the list of genres is expandable via an administrative form"

NickTraenkner says, "and editable"

LawrenceClark says, "ok, good, Nick"

RobKendall says, "that's one reason that we're keeping the categories confined to fundamental techniques"

nm says, "good idea"

kheintz says, "Sounds like the genre list should be a Click-All-That-Apply thing."

Adrian says, "but Nick, lets say i put in something and call x, and then later kinopoetry is added, i've missed my chance as it were, unless i know that the genre's been added"

nm says, "genre classification is very thorny"

LawrenceClark says, "Rob, the techniques being those you just mentioned?"

NickTraenkner says, "as are plugins,browser,languages,technologies employed..."

Julianne says, "Eve, EA's ergodic = from Gk "work" and "path" - something that makes users (EA's pref term) work to follow paths "

Adrian says, "so... what about an email announce only list for admin for all who contribute to tell them of any such changes?"

Deena says, "Yes, a click all that apply would work, then if more terms come online later, writers could re-click and re-update their entries"

RobKendall says, "Lawrence, yes"

Deena says, "entries"

NickTraenkner says, "platforms, authoring systems and lengths"

margie says, "is there anything like a title search"

RobKendall says, "yes, there is a title search"

kheintz says, "Margie, we have a Quick Search in the design, just not seen right here today."

NickTraenkner says, "there will be- i was working on it a few minutes ago and got pulled back into the chat"

Deena says, "Nick, those are good things to include into the database for descriptions."

margie says, "say, key words, if I want to find a piece?"

Deena says, "Stay with us Nick, you can work later."

Deena hands Nick another beer

LawrenceClark says, "Deena, can I have one, too? :)"

Deena says, "Right, I think keywords are the best bet in this, as they can keep up with the changes faster than others."

Julianne hands Nick another of the Aarseth Trophies, just because - s/he has a million of 'em

NickTraenkner says, "keywords might be useful when we port to mySQL/php"

Adrian says, "to Nick "can you tell me the ip address of the url?""

Deena hands beer and pretzels all around

NickTraenkner says, "hold on"

RobKendall says, "no keywords as such, but de facto keywords can sometimes be found in the text description field--for example, it might be described as "a visual poem with music""

Adrian says, "no thanks Deena, too early for me :)"

Deena hands Adrian an early sunday morning beer

NickTraenkner says, "try"

Adrian laughs "thanks"

margie says, "Rob, isn't there some javascript stuff for doing keyword searches?"

Adrian says, "thanks Nick, fine now"

LawrenceClark says, "Nick, what is mySQL/php?"

Deena says, "I think it would help to have a keyword entry, just to get people to THINK about what would be keywords"

Adrian says, "its open source and fast and the way to do this Lawrence :)"

Adrian says, "combination database and web scripting language"

Eve2 nods agreement with Deena

LawrenceClark says, "ah!"

NickTraenkner says, "mySQL is an open source SQL database. php is a Object oriented perl-like scripting language to interact with mySQL"

Deena says, "What language is the database in?"

RobKendall says, "Deena that might be asking too much of the people creating the records. you don't want to make redundant work for them"

NickTraenkner says, "TEXIS/vortex"

Deena says, "Good point Rob. Perhaps a line on the description entry could read --also include keywords"

RobKendall says, "yes, that's a good point. if there's something not covered by the categories, it should go in the description field"

Deena says, "Nick and Rob, when will the database premier?"

PhilR1 arrives.

NickTraenkner says, "'two weeks' is my standard answer for that question on everything i do (but rarely right)"

Adrian says, "on the w.html page, can the red bits be scripted to appear subject to selections higher on the page?"

Deena says, "Hi Phil, we are talking about the ELO database and when it will be active."

PhilR1 Phil waves to everybody.

RobKendall says, "well, we're hoping that it will be ready to browse within a month or so. the capability letting people add entries will take longer to finish up"

NickTraenkner says, "the current version moves selected items to the top- but this is slow..."

Julianne says, "Nick: What we say at Trellix is, As I said last month when you asked the same question, it's 95% done"

Deena says, "You can see the prototype by clicking on the General elit chart links on the left."

NickTraenkner says, "Good time frame :)"

Deena hands out 95 percent done awards to all and sundry

Adrian says, "silly question ok? what prevents me from adding a work by Stuart Moulthrop? even if its already there"

NickTraenkner says, "LOL"

PhilR1 says, "I'll listen in."

RobKendall says, "thanks Deena"

Adrian realizes his mistake in life is to think its 98% done

Deena says, "Good point. How do we make sure that no false entries appear?"

RobKendall says, "adrian there will be automatic checks made to avoid duplication"

Adrian says, "based on author/title i assume?"

Deena says, "But could my entry about Stuart's work be taken instead of Stuart's?""

NickTraenkner says, "you can claim to be working with Stuart Moulthrop, but your name will always appear next to co-authors"

Adrian says, "and i enter stuart's stuff before he does? :)"

Deena looks about craftily with evil plans nesting n her head

Adrian says, "ah Deena, crafty minds think alike :)"

Deena whispers loudly--ok who has Stuart's password?

NickTraenkner says, "and this is why a month is a good time frame- there's lots of little questions to be answered and addressed"

RobKendall says, "based on title and author last name. the user will be shown anything that is similar enough to what he is entering that it might be a duplicate and he will be prompted to decide whether it is or not"

LawrenceClark says, "so who is going to "edit" the content of the directory to keep Deena from being devious?"

Adrian says, "ah, so its password based so you'd know i'd been doing stuart's stuff?"

NickTraenkner says, "yes"

Deena says, "Actually, is it password based?"

Adrian nods "great :)"

NickTraenkner says, "yes"

Deena says, "So I would have to get the passwords from everyone first?"

margie says, "this sounds like a full-time job for someone!"

PhilR1 says, "Bye, Back to my studies. Will return later."

NickTraenkner says, "to enter or edit your works you must login using username and password"

Deena says, "See you Phil"

LawrenceClark says, "I just looked at the 'author info' form and I didn't see any place for a password--or is this forthcoming?"

Deena says, "Could you describe the procedure for entering an author or publisher?"

kheintz says, "We deal with passwords when a registered user logs in."

NickTraenkner says, "the links in the example are on a separate database and script- this is just a demo"

Adrian says, "i'd like a genre for 'creative' sort of academic work. nonfiction but definitely creative. or is that outside the game here? "

RobKendall says, "authors will be able to see who has been entering work in their name and they can shut them out if they want. they will want to let their publishers enter their work but maybe not other people"

NickTraenkner says, "oooh yeah! that's easy with access lists!"

Deena says, "Having a list of creative academic work would help. As opposed to noncreative academic work."

LawrenceClark says, "oh, I see . . ."

Adrian looks rather impressed by Rob's last comment

RobKendall says, "the passwords and accounts are set up separately from the author records"

Adrian laughs, "indeed Deena"

LawrenceClark says, "could we have a separate category for student work? Or should they just list it under the general categories/"

Deena says, "So first I apply to be a user, then I get approval, then I enter my data and control my little corner of the data b ase?"

Adrian says, "so basically its all working and fine, there is mainly the issue of classifications?"

RobKendall says, "adrian, there is "personal narrative" but that's the only nonfiction genre we're allowing--otherwise it's just too broad"

NickTraenkner says, "you should get approval immediately"

kheintz says, "Lawrence, I'm not sure we're distinguishing whether a work is a student's. It's just a work."

Adrian says, "so Ulmer's mystery doesn't get a look in?"

NickTraenkner says, "Lawrence: there's the open workshop category..."

Deena says, "What is Ulmer's mystery/mystory"

LawrenceClark says, "ok, kheintz--I think that's better for the students anyway, now that i think of it, rather than placing them in a "second class" tier""

margie says, "wow, I'm with Adrian. So much of the work on the web just now is creative non-fiction. almost 80% of the dinner party was--"

RobKendall says, "no i don't think we need to distinguish between student and non. that implies quality distinctions that often don't exist"

Eve2 says, "well, don't think I'll be much help here, so gonna run. Bye folks!"

Deena says, "I think that this should be a category. We can say 'creative nonfiction. Like Wendy Morgan's stuff"

NickTraenkner says, "bye!"

LawrenceClark says, "Nick, what is the Open Workshop category for? Works in Progress?"

NickTraenkner says, "Larry, I believe so- Rob?"

LawrenceClark says, "Rob? Do you know the answer to the question I just asked Nick?"

Adrian says, "mystory is multilinear nonfiction that is specifically intertextual, ergodic, blah blah, its greg ulmer's terminology and is used in 2 of his books"

Deena says, "That sounds as if it should be in the database to me. "

LawrenceClark says, "oh, sorry Nick, you said "bye" and I thought you left. :o"

RobKendall says, "yes the open workshop is for unpublished works in progress--stuff not ready for prime time but in search of comments from readers"

Adrian says, "oh, and mystory is personal too, could be personal narrative, but it has nonfiction aspects."

NickTraenkner says, "I'm still here!"

nm says, "Rob, that's a great checkbox - 'Open Workshop'"

Deena says, "So what if we had creative nonfiction AS LONG AS it contained narrative?"

LawrenceClark says, "does any written text NOT contain narrative?"

RobKendall says, "Deena, that should be covered under personal narrative, no?"

margie says, "seems to me it doesn't even have to contain narrative to be literature--?"

Deena says, "can nonfiction be literature?"

Outgoing_Guest arrives from Courtyard

>> Outgoing_Guest is now known as nholmes.

LawrenceClark says, "of course, Deena"

Deena bounces a rubber term literature around the room and stretches it out of shape

margie says, "I am thinking of something like Angie Eng's Empty Velocity, bunches of things like that"

Adrian says, "ok, the kinepoem thing that went in New River was, for me, academic work. creative, but academic. or am i just being wrong headed here?"

Adrian says, "btw it uses citizen kane with quotes from ted nelson."

LawrenceClark says, "Of course, Deena; most political speeches would fall into the fiction category anyway, since they are fairy tales. :)"

Deena says, "Hi Nholmes. We are working on determining if creative fiction should be included in the Electronic literature database"

RobKendall says, "we had a long debate about this and decided that areas such as autobiography, memoir, etc. were as far as we wanted to go in the nonfiction field. otherwise we'd end up having to list every newsgroup that was archived on the web"

margie says, "Adrian--we have to keep on this line. It's an important issue!"

Deena says, "Adrian, why can't creative work be academic, and vice versa? "

Adrian says, "no, newsgroups don't count do they?"

LawrenceClark says, "Good point, Rob"

Adrian says, "it can, but i'm concerned about academic creative hypertext work becoming invisible. the academ doesn't like it, nor the fiction folks"

margie says, "or Talan Memmot's Lux?"

RobKendall says, "newsgroups would fall under the category "reader collaboration" so their content is the only thing excluding them"

Deena says, "And the literature aspects then become how to get the information and connections to someone. What about Quad Erat Exorces?"

Deena says, "(the 14th cent text on working conditions Eastgate put out)"

margie says, "Rob, maybe we could continue this discussion a little further in the future?"

Deena says, "Or Unreal City"

RobKendall says, "sounds good, margie"

Adrian says, "Deena, i need to leave soon, has this session got a recorder running so i can catch up with it later?"

Deena says, "And leave the database open to these works now to see what we get or close it now and open it later?"

Deena says, "Yes, this will be archived at"

Adrian says, "thanks"

RobKendall says, "Deena you can't allow things at first and then start excluding them. has to be the other way around"

LawrenceClark says, "Yeah, I gotta go, too--Rob and Nick, thanks for all of your hard work--nice to talk to everybody!"

Deena says, "Nick and Rob, any last comments?"

Deena says, "Good point, Rob. "

margie says, "Yo, me too! wonderful, thanks Rob, Nick, Heinz, Deena!"

kheintz says, "Cheers!"

RobKendall says, "well i'd just like to thank everyone for their input and their concern and i hope you will all follow our progress"

margie says, "good luck and all success!"

LawrenceClark says, "laters . . ."

Julianne waves gratefully at Rob and Nick and everybody

nm says, "best of luck! looking forward to it"

RobKendall says, "goodbye all"

kheintz [to RobKendall]: nice chat... I enjoyed it.

Deena says, "This will eventually be up at right?"

Adrian says, "its looking really good rob and nick"

RobKendall says, "thanks, kurt. me too"

Deena says, "And I will keep a running tab on it in the chat room links."

kheintz [to Adrian]: your's truly is the designer ;)

margie says, "have a great day"

Adrian says, "ah well then congratulations, looks good"

Deena says, "Kheintz, I wish I'd known that, I would have introduced you!"

NickTraenkner says, "i was looking at my other monitor"

guest182 says, "Good luck, I will be interested to see the progress."

Deena says, "congrats to all you guys, and it looks wonderful."

Adrian nods in agreement

kheintz says, "No prob... Just thought I'd lurk today, Deena, but got caught up in the chat."

RobKendall says, "yes, we forgot to mention that kurt is the elo web site designer and is doing the html and layout for the directory pages"

Adrian says, "ok, gotta get going all. see some of you at ht00?"

Deena says, "Guest182, please send me your email address so we can keep you informed of progress. at"

Deena says, "See you there, Adrian!"

NickTraenkner says, "we have a good start on the reports- tho i found lots of errors during the chat- kept me distracted"

Deena says, "Kurt, on the side, I need to figure out how to get the chats up on your site."

kheintz says, "bye, all..."

RobKendall says, "sorry about that kurt"

Adrian waves and wanders off into the day

NickTraenkner says, "bye kurt!"

drian says, "see you Rob and Nick, Deena, et al :)"

Deena says, "Nick, hope you can figure out the errors."

Adrian tiptoes out.

Adrian goes home.

RobKendall says, "bye adrian"

NickTraenkner says, "Debugging man, let me tell you...."

NickTraenkner says, "these things usually last 2 hours?"

Deena says, "Well, I try to keep it to 1 1/2 hours."

Deena says, "to give people time to come in and out"

NickTraenkner says, "ahh"

nm says, "I didn't know my checkbox comment would add 1/2 hour to the discussion..."

Deena says, "I think it is good to talk as long as people are interested... but "

NickTraenkner says, "comments like that usually send our phone confs into 2 hours it seems ;)"

Deena says, "Genre questions and term questions are really hard to deal with!"

Deena says, "You guys can use this space to debug or list what errors you found."

nm says, "See you guys next time. I've mentioned to Scott that I can offer to do some of that tricky categorization work for some of the major literary IF works."

NickTraenkner says, "yup- I'm still thinking about making that list of techniques checkboxes expandable"

NickTraenkner says, "see you nick!"

Deena says, "Nick M, that sounds like a really useful thing. Does Nick T. have your email?"

NickTraenkner says, "good to meet you again"

nm says, "Hopefully .. it's"

NickTraenkner says, "go it now..."

nm says, "Take care."

NickTraenkner says, "later"

RobKendall says, "bye nick"

NickTraenkner says, "hmm that seemed to go well"

Deena says, "Yes, thanks so much you guys!"

NickTraenkner says, "lots of discussion for sure"

Deena says, "I am really glad you could talk about the database"

RobKendall says, "thank you Deena. good feedback"

-- End log: Saturday, March 18, 2000 4:53:04 pm CST