Chat Transcript: January 9, 2000
What's Up With the Electronic Literature Organization?

Related Links

margie says, "Hi to John and Jim"

Deena "Welcome to the first chat at the eiterature stie.

JimRosenberg says, "Margie, I've been meaning to E-mail you for *ages* ..."

Deena quickly grabs a type checker

Deena says, "Scott, did you want to start us off,?"

margie says, "I have been thinking of doing the same--how goes it?"

Deena says, 'Jim, I liked your new piece. Could you share the URL"

Julianne quietly enters.

Julianne arrives.

JimRosenberg says, "Thanks, Deena, hang on I have to look it up."

scottrettberg says, "hi julianne"

Sorry, cannot find any players by that name.

scottrettberg says, "deena did you get the recorder working"

margie says, "hi Julianne!!"

Julianne says, "hi everybody"

Sorry, cannot find any players by that name.

Try this instead: I

Deena says, 'yes, I have a recorder and a log going"

jmcdaid waves hi

scottrettberg says, "how is boston"

Your message has been sent to SarahAtkinson

Julianne says, "scott, it's cold and clear in Boston'

JimRosenberg says, "Deena, that URL is"

SarahAtkinson quietly enters.

SarahAtkinson arrives.

margie says, "can we copy from the Moo screen?"

Deena says, "If you haven't gone to Jim's new stuff, you should see it."

Deena says, 'Hi Sarah"

Deena says, 'Yes, you just block and copy"

SarahAtkinson says, "Hello Deena"

scottrettberg says, " That should work for today"

Deena says, "We wanted to discuss the future of electronic literature today."

Adrian quietly enters.

Adrian waltzes in, abandoning the world at the door

Jill quietly enters.

Jill walks in, humming a happy tune.

Adrian says, "hello everybody :)"

Adrian waves to all

scottrettberg says, " Adrian and Jill the pros are here now"

Jill smiles hello

margie says, "hi Adrian and Jill"

Jill laughs

Jill says, "hello Margie!"

Jill says, "and everyone else!"

Adrian says, "hi Margie :)"

Adnan says, "Hello everybody."

scottrettberg says, "So I guess this is the first "

Deena takes a flute to amplify the happy tune

Your message has been sent to RobKendall

scottrettberg says, "official ELO chat. I'd like, first, to take a little time to get everyone familiar with the MOO space. "

RobKendall quietly enters.

RobKendall arrives.

Deena says, "If you type @who, you will see a list of who is here."

Adnan [to RobKendall]: Hi Rob

scottrettberg says, "or actually to learn a bit myself"

Jill laughs

scottrettberg says, "Hi Rob"

margie says, "hey Rob"

Deena says, "If your messages are running off the screen, you can type @linelength"

scottrettberg says, "Jill, how do put a link into the right side space on the XPress screen?"

Deena says, '@linelength 40"

RobKendall says, 'hi'

Jill says, "you create an object and drop it in the room"

Deena says, "@linelength 40"

Deena says, 'Hi Rob"

Jill says, "no, wait, the links are actually "exits" to other "rooms" in the moo"

Jill says, "so you dig to another room"

Deena says, "the magic book has the electronic lit URL on it."

RobKendall says, "nice to see all you folks here."

Deena says, "Hi Rob"

Deena says, "You can type a " before your remark to say something, a : before an action to do something"

Adrian has disconnected.

Jill [to scottrettberg]: so typing '@dig north to my room' will create a link from the room you're in (if you own it) and also create a new room called 'my room'

RobKendall says, 'looks like a good group. have i missed anything yet?"

Deena says, 'Nope, we are just getting started."

Deena says, 'Rob, could you say a few words about your courses, the connection system, and the resources at Word circuits for hypertext?"

SarahAtkinson says, "what's on tap?"

scottrettberg says, " We're just getting started. "

Adrian has connected.

Jill smiles to Adrian.

Deena says, 'We want to talk about the resources available for hypertext, and introduce the electronic lit organization."

margie going for a coke

Deena says, 'Scott, could you explain what the electronic lit organization is?"

scottrettberg says, " So let me identify a few people who are in the room who are helping to get ELO off the ground."

RobKendall says, 'sure deena.'

scottrettberg says, " Margie Luesebrink is a member of the ELO board of directors and a hypertext author"

scottrettberg says, " Deena Larsen is going to manage our chat events, like this one."

scottrettberg says, " and Rob Kendall is supervising the author and works directory, along with Nick Traenkner. We're about a week away from launching that."

margie passing around cokes from California

Julianne says, "thank you Margie, that tastes great"

Jill eagerly accepts one, hoping there's some sunshine in the can as well.

Deena toasts the launching of the author and works directory

jmcdaid [to margie]: thanks, yum

SarahAtkinson says, ":)"

scottrettberg says, " Rob, do you want to say a little bit about what we have in mind for the directory?"

Adrian whispers, "Deena, you might like to tell people that they can page or

whisper to each other and that it doesn't appear on everyone's screens"

RobKendall says, 'sure, scott'

RobKendall says, 'the ELO directory will be largely a bigger and better version of the one that's currently on Word Circuits."

RobKendall says, 'it will be a true database that will let authors and publishers add and maintain their own entries"

scottrettberg says, " with a broader scope, and importantly, with an author interface."

SarahAtkinson says, "Sorry to interrupt...what is Word Circuits?"

Ah, that familiar sensation that Adrian is calling you from Eliterature.

He pages, "yep :)"

RobKendall says, 'the first iteration of the directory will be basically a catalog of hypertext/cybertext authors and their works"

Adnan [to scottrettberg]: what is an author interface?

RobKendall says, 'what scott means is that authors will be able to go to the directory and add to and edit the material there about them"

RobKendall says, 'publishers will also be able to add entries for authors and works"

Adnan says, "cool "

Deena says, '[An instructional aside, if you want to talk to someone privately,

you can page them by typing Page their name QUOTATION MARK your message."

Deena says, "@more"

Adrian says, "whisper "about 50 minutes, i'll probably get a tram" to Jill"

scottrettberg says, " and we'll be able to sort our searches via a variety of criteria"

Jill's screen flickers with your words.

RobKendall says, 'this means that whenever, say, Ed Falco of the New River publishes a new hypertext he can go to the directory and add a listing for it there"

Your message has been sent to Adrian

You sense that Julianne is looking for you in Eliterature.

It pages, "thanks for helping us new MOOers"

margie says, "this will be so cool, we have needed this!"

Your message has been sent to Julianne

Ah, that familiar sensation that Adrian is calling you from Eliterature.

He pages, "yes, its 9 monday morning, but i have a meeting so won't be able to stay for all of it :("

RobKendall says, 'if Deena or adnan or margie discovers that their work is missing from the directory they will simply be able to add it themselves"

Jill whispers, "yes, its fine - hope its ok for you americans? not in the middle of your sunday dinners?"

Deena says, 'We will have to work on getting the word out about this new directory. Any ideas?"

Adnan says, "might this also be a way for authors' to find appropriate contexts for completed works to be published in?"

RobKendall says, 'everything will be password protected so authors will only have editing privileges for their own entries"

margie clam dip and potato chips

Jill's screen flickers with your words.

Adrian thanks Margie :)

RobKendall says, 'what exactly do you mean adnan?"

Adrian wipes his fingers, oops, sorry about dropping that...

jmcdaid [to margie]: (crunching) thanks!

scottrettberg says, " we're going to launch with the existing data from the wordcircuits directory but we'll need help from everyone to get their data in."

Deena says, "Adnan, do you mean an author would just publish on his/her own site and then announce it n the directory?"

Adnan [to RobKendall]: i mean could an author pitch an idea to the database for an editor to pick up?

Adrian says, "great idea. in terms of other users, how do you see them using

it? or is it a directory mainly for the hypertext community?"

Deena says, "Great. Will we have an announcement asking for contributors?"

RobKendall says, 'yes, scott, is right. what will make this project valuable is that it will be able to take advantage of the energy and motivations of dozens of individuals rather than relying on the work of one or two people"

Deena says, 'that is definitely the way to go!"

scottrettberg says, " I think that could certainly be one of the functions the directory will play. We're also thinking of the database as a way to help hook authors up with live readings, as part of a connections program."

Deena says, "Scott, how will the database be managed?"

scottrettberg says, " Rob and Nick are going to be the main managers of the database. "

RobKendall says, 'adnan, I was planning to limit the directory to published

work, but you raise an interesting point. there's no reason we couldn't include unpublished work that is looking for a publisher."

Adnan says, "sounds cool"

Deena says, 'I think we should keep it as open as possible for now"

Adrian says, "what i mean is if i'm joanne public and i visit, what would i search for and what would i find? if i don't know any hypertext authors would i get an alphabetized list? or will there be more?"

SarahAtkinson says, "So, will authors be able to post their own works themselves, or will they have to be posted by zines and such that publish the works?"

Deena says, 'And could we get a short intro on what hypertext is and what electronic literature is to welcome joanne public?"

scottrettberg says, " publication is (on the web) largely a gray matter. Authors will be able to advertise what they publish themselves"

RobKendall says, 'authors will be able to post their own works"

Deena says, 'Will electronic zines also be able to join the directory"

Adrian says, "post the titles/urls of their work? but not publish their work on the site? right?"

Jill says, "oh, and an amazon style thing "if you liked this, you might like..." (ha)"

RobKendall says, 'a later addition to the directory will be reviews and recommendations. this will make it easier for readers to find things that are highly recommended by other people"

Jill nods at Rob's remark.

scottrettberg says, " each author will have a password, to control their own page. We'll only intervene if someone is clearly going out of their way to manipulate the directory to include other types of material ie XXX sites."

Deena says, 'Have you seen the 3rd millennium web ring? They have a list of authors, but it is difficult to find people if you don't know the names."

scottrettberg says, " right, Adrian"

Deena says, 'Will there be an easier interface to find things?"

SarahAtkinson says, "a directory of E-zines publishing hypertext would be great, too. "

Jill says, "have you set up what the categories will be? author name, title, url anything else?"

Adrian says, "Scott, i'm not quite following. do you mean my web page would be like a CV with links? but wouldn't actually be my piece of writing?"

RobKendall says, 'users of the directory will also be able to select things by category: for example, they could pull up all the poems that use hypertext and audio that were published in the las year"

scottrettberg says, " yes, we plan on including zines as well, though that will be in the second step."

Jill nods

Your message has been sent to Adnan

Deena says, "@more"

You sense that Adnan is looking for you in Eliterature.

He pages, "yeah"

RobKendall says, 'yes there will also be a directory of publishers: ezines, Web archives, and disk-based publishers"

scottrettberg says, " Adrian, that's right. We aren't hosting the work itself, but everyone has their own page to link to their work, located elsewhere."

SarahAtkinson says, "Excellent."

Adrian says, "ah, now its getting clearer :) so you'll have to train the writers to click the right check boxes? :)"

Jill says, "and did you say it'll be ready in just a week? wow!"

margie says, "Rob, didn't you say that Nick would be able to set up a searchable database--then folks could find what they were looking for, yes?"

Deena says, "Would we be able to put in keywords for that search database?"

scottrettberg says, " Well, it's nearly there --- it'll probably be there in a week, and then take a couple more to get all the kinks out."

scottrettberg says, " but Nick and Rob are working hard on it."

margie says, "on well, we have waited years, a couple of weeks we can stand!"

alcyone quietly enters.

alcyone arrives.

Deena says, 'This is great. "

Deena says, 'Hi Alcyone"

Adrian says, "deena: keywords are troublesome, much better to have check boxes or something"

Adrian says, "so that keywords are predefined"

Deena says, 'Adrian, yeah, check boxes provide a standard, at least."

SarahAtkinson says, "i have a more basic question...what exactly will be the primary mission of ELO?"

scottrettberg says, " you'll also shortly see a new look to the site. Kurt Heintz, who directs, is doing our design."

JimRosenberg says, "check boxes like WHAT?"

Jill says, "yes, i've wondered about that too, Sarah ;)"

Deena says, 'Can we ask for other check boxes?"

Adnan says, "can somebody please post the url for the elo?"

alcyone says, "ack ... trying to remember commands ... hello all Jennifer here"

RobKendall says, 'people will search the database by clicking on radio buttons and typing things into text fields"

scottrettberg says, " The mission of ELO is to promote and facilitate the writing, publishing, and reading of literature in electronic media"

Jill says, "hi Jennifer :)"

SarahAtkinson says, "and how are you planning to reach new audiences?"

margie says, "hi alcyone, hi Jennifer!"

Your message has been sent to alcyone

Adrian says, "check boxes: if you let writers define their own keywords it makes it really hard for others to use the database. my work might get called cinepoetry but someone doing the same stuff might call it kinepoetry or kinetic eliterature or whatever. a checkbox that says the work uses video and is time based, for example makes the database work better"

scottrettberg says, " So our programs are all focused on that. Our first concern is getting together a website to serve as a central hub -- with a directory, a scan of related news, and an events calendar."

SarahAtkinson says, "does anyone know if there is an interest within the current print publishing community, to also publish hypertext works?"

You sense that alcyone is looking for you in Eliterature.

She pages, "thanks :)"

Your message has been sent to alcyone

scottrettberg says, " I think we're starting to see signs of that interest."

Deena says, 'There is a quickly growing interest in e-publishing sequential works. These guys are very well organized, and we should work with them."

Julianne says, "more suggested things-to-sort-on (in later releases): date of first e-publication? Rob mentioned type? self-described genre e.g. "horror" - I like the way newspoetry lets me search by subject of the newspoem OR by what type of poem it is -"

alcyone says, 'I got a message from a small print publisher today about that re: the next Meridian"

Deena says, 'However, most of the folks on the e-pub list are still a little shy about hypertext"

SarahAtkinson says, "I know there has been much concern over the years about 'anyone being able to publish on the Web' will ELO work to fight some of the stigmas associated with this?"

scottrettberg says, " and we're also seeing a lot of new ventures springing up in electronic publishing. Dreamworks and Imagine for instance recently announced a new company for entertainment content on the web"

Deena says, 'and the e-publishers are confining their works to pdf files\."

Julianne takes hat off to Rob, Nick, and everyone who has worked so hard on this.

Deena joins in the cheers.

Jill says, "pdf! the rotters."

alcyone smiles ...

scottrettberg says, " so even the definition of "publisher" is kind of murky right now. Are web entertainment companies publishers?"

Jill cheers heartily as well

Deena says, 'yeah, well, it is a start. At least we are seeing a move for traditional sequential reading on the web."

Deena says, 'how can we broaden these perspectives?"

JimRosenberg says, "I used to think PDF was the pits, but after seeing Jobs' keynote, the idea of each *phrase* being a PDF might be useful ..."

alcyone says, "Sometimes I think it will take a Dreamworks and a Myst-like hypertext to get more serious hypertext into the marketplace "

Adnan smiles

Deena says, 'the e-pubbers are also battling that stigma, well, if it is easy to publish, it must not be good."

jmcdaid says, "that's the Jobs reality distortion field again..."

RobKendall says, 'as people get more familiar with the web they'll become more comfortable with its unique aspects for art creation"

scottrettberg says, " I think that half of the battle is getting the work in front of the right people, and/or more people in general"

Deena says, 'This is partially prejudice, and partially accurate, there is a lot of stuff out there to wade through"

Jill [to JimRosenberg]: what? each phrase? did Steve jobs talk about that or are you lyricizing his keynote?

Adrian says, 'pdf? interesting. hadn't thought of that as more than a publication vehicle. talk about blind spots and prejudices! :)"

JimRosenberg says, "no, I'm serious. There's a problem out there. What happens to gifs and jpegs when screen resolution *quadruples*, John? *Something* has to render dynamic resolution on the fly ..."

SarahAtkinson says, "well, yes, I know that many publishers (however you want to define that :) believe that the editorial process is of the utmost importance, so, non-edited work often equals "not good" in their minds. Is there a standard editorial process for E-words?"

Adrian says, "page jmcdaid "nah, currently 9:30am monday morning'

jmcdaid says, "don't get me wrong -- I LOVE Jobs."

alcyone says, "standard? arghhhh I don't think so :)"

JimRosenberg says, "Jill, I got the impression that PDF replaces quickdraw for OS X."

scottrettberg says, " One of ELO's main goals during this first year is going to be to raise the profile of the existing work, and also to encourage more writers to work in the space."

Deena says, 'Scott, I think that is a good way to go."

Jill [to JimRosenberg]: yes there was something about that... interesting..

Deena says, 'Also, we need to show the quality of the work, and the publishers and zines that are here."

Adrian says, "to Jim and Jill, yes, that rings a bell from somewhere (quickdraw being replaced)"

SarahAtkinson says, "so how will you be raising that profile. or than online?"

scottrettberg says, " We'll do this both online and through live events of various kinds."

alcyone says, "what kind of live events Scott?"

scottrettberg says, " Several of our first events will be, essentially, fundraisers. "

scottrettberg says, " With performances of interactive works. Another event that I'd like to see happen this year is an international day of eliterature readings"

Adnan says, "has anybody successfully added e-commerce to web-based hypertext purchasing?"

Deena says, 'We can use the directory to help raise that profile"

SarahAtkinson says, "what is the library of hypertext works looking like? I mean, if Amazon carried only hypertext works, how many titles would they stock?"

Jill says, "does Amazon carry any hypertexts btw?"

scottrettberg says, " And we're also planning on having a presence at major trade shows, and conferences."

Adrian says, "well, that begs a definition of hypertext :)"

Deena says, 'Sarah, that is really difficult. I think that there are about 10 good hypertext zines, Eastgate, tec."

Deena says, 'Eastgate's publications are not on Amazon "

Adnan says, "i wonder if you could charge a reader by the node"

margie says, "It's really surprising the number of excellent works on the web alone, now--see the next Meridian--39 women for a start :-)"

scottrettberg says, " And on a different scale, we'll try to serve as a connection point between writers and institutions like libraries who want to

host readings locally."

Deena says, 'Adnan, or by each page hit"

Adnan says, "by the word even"

RobKendall says, 'i would say there are a few hundred works of hypertext/cybertext available now. there are probably about 30 or 40 places on the web that publish this stuff now"

Deena says, 'Yes, Margie, the 39 women page will really show the quality works out there :)"

SarahAtkinson says, "Couldn't you sell hypertext fiction in the same manner as titles are sold for Rocket-ebooks and such?"

Adrian says, "there are thousands, you ought to include all the student work being done, for instance, all over the world"

scottrettberg says, " and then there's always the DIY approach to publishing."

alcyone says, 'Scott, will ELO support online publications that do not have a 'product' per se ?? but which serve to distribute web work online??"

Deena says, 'Rocket books will run HTML, but will not do storyspace, there are always software issues"

Julianne shrinks into self at the prospect of a definitions discussion, but thinks of at least 1000 ht works online (including self-pubbed, not rigorously edited)

Deena says, 'Adrian, yes, is there any way we can get the student work in the directory?"

scottrettberg says, " alcyone -- yes, in terms of getting readers to them"

Adnan [to Deena]: will rocketbooks run HTML + javascript?

margie nodding with Julianne

Your message has been sent to Adnan

alcyone says, "be right back, going to log on with my real name :)"

alcyone has disconnected.

Adrian says, "only by trying to have those teaching this stuff aware of it, and getting the students to add themselves to the elo database. i'd certainly be doing it with my students, though they're not fiction writers per se"

scottrettberg says, " the organization is most definitely not a for-profit venture. We're interested in seeing the field in general grow"

RobKendall says, 'yes, we can accommodate anything in the directory that has a url"

SarahAtkinson says, "Scott, when you say get author writing in the 'space' Do you mean Web space or story space or?"

RobKendall says, 'the only problem will be with things that appear at temporary urls. we don't want a lot of broken links"

scottrettberg says, " so our interest in the product bent is only insofar as we like to see workable business models develop."

Deena says, "Adrian, is there a resource site for teachers of hypertexts? Could we get a student database or something there?"

Deena says, "@more"

Julianne says, "Why not rule out temporary URLs then Rob, that seems fair..."

Deena says, "How will you determine what is temporary?"

Jill says, "the urls should be checked at regular intervals - can the database thing do that?"

scottrettberg says, " The space I'm talking about is, essentially, electronic literature, forms of lit that utilize the electronic medium to do things that you can't do in print."

Julianne says, "Well, provided for the duration of Rob's class etc."

Deena says, 'Good point, Jill."

Adrian says, "if its a database you can't really control what people write in there"

Adrian says, "and i don't know of specific resources for hypertext teachers"

Jill says, "actually you can run go live or probably dreamweaver over the site to check for broken links i think" Adnan says, "i agree with Julianne. altho, perhaps there could be a section in the database where completed works or projected works could find collaborators/editors/publishers"

Deena says, 'Kairos is a good journal for hypertext research, but I don't know if they keep track of who teaches what"

Adrian says, "you'd probably need to dump all the urls in the database into a temp. page and then link check"

JenniferL quietly enters.

JenniferL arrives.

Adrian says, "Eastgate does the best job of listing teaching courses actually"

SarahAtkinson says, "there is a service called 'the garage' or something like that, the will check your site for broken links; it works great (I have the bookmark on another 'puter)"

margie says, "Actually, we need to get some better links going in the search engines, too. They are horribly out-of-date--"

Deena says, 'Jill, and maybe do an automatic notice to the 'owner' of the info--that your link has been removed because it was broken"

scottrettberg says, " The idea is that we're encouraging the expansion of literature into the electronic sphere. So this runs from "enhanced" print works, like realaudio readings, to fully interactive work like hypertext fiction, kinetic poetry, interactive drama."

Deena says, 'Margie, which search engines"

Jill [to Deena]: that'd be great, i've no idea how to do it though

Adrian says, "broken links: remember all that it is in a database, they are dynamic pages that don't live there waiting to be link checked"

Deena says, 'Nick can do it. Nick can do anything."

RobKendall says, 'the database will distinguish between published (permanent urls) and unpublished (temporary urls). we might decide to automatically delete unpublished works after say 3 months or something. these are details we still need to work out"

scottrettberg says, " on the directory -- yes, Rob, we're going to want to do a regular "scrub" of the site for broken links. I have some software that does that. It's pretty simple."

margie says, "Yahoo, Excite, etc. etc. DogPile, etc."

SarahAtkinson says, "you guys are talking to fast for me? Did someone mention a research journal for hypertext? what is the URL?"

Deena says, 'Margie, how can we clean up the search engines?"

scottrettberg says, " Yeah, we'll be working out the details on that, but I don't think we'll automatically delete links unless they're dead."

Jill [to Adrian]: dynamic pages - ugh.

Adrian says, "that's problematic. would it also delete the author's entry?"

Julianne says, "In print nowadays, a good way to find a publisher for something 'new' is to promote it oneself, demonstrate that there are readers (e.g. Onion, Suck), then later in the cycle one gets print pub. Adnan, I don't think it's realistic to expect ELO to *find* publishers for us. Serve as a network yes, but an agent, no. "

Jill [to Deena]: nick can do anything? good on him (and i'll remember that :)

margie says, "We ought to get ELO to pay one of the search engine jockeys to put our stuff up on all the search engines. it costs like $70."

The housekeeper arrives to cart alcyone off to bed.

scottrettberg says, " a link's only temporary if it's dead."

Deena says, 'Sarah, just go on dogpile and look for Kairos, I don't have the URL handy. (Or e-mail me for a transcript of this session)"

Julianne nods to Scott.

Adrian says, "sarah, try and search for Kairos or any other research term."

scottrettberg says, " We'll get the word out once the site's up to full speed."

Adnan [to Julianne]: yes, as a network, of course.

SarahAtkinson says, "Thank you much"

scottrettberg says, " Let's also talk a little bit about these chat events themselves. Deena, could you explain the difference between a topic chat and a guest chat?"

Deena says, 'Scott, we may want to do this in stages, get the word out on the ht mailing lists to get people to sign up, and then iron the bugs out and then go public"

Adrian says, "sorry all, i have to get to my office for a meeting (its monday here) this is really good Scott and Deena, see you all soon!"

scottrettberg says, " Talk to you soon, Adrian."

Adrian waves goodbye "till next time"

Julianne waves goodbye

Deena says, 'Sure Scott. The general topic chats will be the second Sunday of the month. We will talk about hypertext, and hypertext in general. The topic chats will feature a guest speaker, and concentrate on one asp[ect of hypertext."

Adrian has disconnected.

margie says, "Bye Adreain!!!"

Deena says, "Next chat will be with Talan Memmot'

Deena says, ' Please join us Sunday, January 9 at 9 pm Eastern (8 pm CT, 7 pm"

scottrettberg says, " And Talan Memot, of beehive and defib will be our first guest. What's the date on that?"

Deena formats the room for panel discussion. Type 'ask' followed by enter to ask a question to the panel.

Deena says, ' Please join us Sunday, January 9 at 9 pm Eastern (8 pm CT, 7 pm"

Deena formats the room for panel discussion. Type 'ask' followed by enter to ask a question to the panel.

JenniferL says, "Memmott :)"

scottrettberg says, "Whoops"

Deena says, ' Please join us Sunday, January 9 at 9 pm Eastern (8 pm CT, 7 pm"

Deena formats the room for panel discussion. Type 'ask' followed by enter to ask a question to the panel.

JenniferL says, "hey I do it all the time :)"

scottrettberg says, " Deena, that's when, again?"

margie says, "Is that tonight? "

Julianne says, "Do y'all mean in 3 hours from now?"

Deena says, "Sorry, I tried to paste in the announcement and could not"

Deena says, 'That will be Wednesday 29th January at 7 pm mountain time."

scottrettberg says, " so that's 9 ET, 8 CT, 7 MTN, 6 PT, and help from the europeans?"

Deena says, ' noon am Thursday in Sydney, and 2 am GMT)"

scottrettberg says, " on the time there"

Deena says, "Talan Memmott is an artist/writer living and working in San Francisco"

scottrettberg says, " We've had trouble figuring times that will work both for Norway and for Australia"

Jill says, "wait, so tonight in - two hours time?"

Jill says, "i know, time zones are impossible"

Deena says, 'No. Wednesday the 29th of January at OUCH 2 am GMT"

Adnan says, "Talan M. has recently published a couple of striking web-based pieces."

Deena says, 'I'm sorry about that Jill."

Jill says, "ah, its ok, i know times are hard"

SarahAtkinson says, "where might we read the, Adnan?"

Jill smiles

JenniferL says, "a wonderful collaboration with Mez in the current BeeHive"

Deena says, 'But it is IMPOSSIBLE to get Australia, US and Norway awake at the same time."

scottrettberg says, " For these guest chats, Deena and I will work with the authors/guests to embed links in the Xpress browser so we can read/look at the work while we chat with its author"

Deena starts singing Times are Hard from Sweeney Todd

Julianne harmonizes

Adnan says, "and this other one that navigates through elegant 3d visual spaces. i think it might be at beehive as well, not sure"

The housekeeper arrives to cart Adrian off to bed.

Jill [to scottrettberg]: great

You sense that jmcdaid is looking for you in Eliterature.

He pages, "and them pussycats is quick..."

Deena says, "page Jill "help with that, could you?"

JenniferL says, " BeeHive is

Jill says, "and of course i'll help :)"

scottrettberg says, " Jill rules"

Your message has been sent to jmcdaid

Jill laughs, "yeah, right, scott, flattery will get you everywhere!"

scottrettberg says, " we'll try to get talan in here over the next week or so to line up the links, so you'll be able to drop in the week beforehand to check things out."

Deena says, "Are there other suggestions for guests?"

Julianne says, "In addition to the many authors here I'd like to have as MOO special guests, it'd be great to have a chat with Rob Wittig about use of the vernacular and/or collaboration between writers and graphic designers on these pieces..."

Deena says, 'What would you like to see covered?"

SarahAtkinson says, "another question (I think I'm the only 'outsider' here)...are there any academic works being written in hypertext...I mean, actual books of research being published in hypertext?"

scottrettberg says, " The Rob Wittig chat will be easy to arrange."

Adnan says, "yes that is the correct url"

scottrettberg says, " Rob's work is at"

Deena says, 'Sarah, yes, talk with Bruce Mason about his sociological work"

Jill says, "are the chats here intended as sort of strengthening for the community or an outward invitation to potential new readers? or both?"

Julianne says, "Having spent more time with Califia I have tons more questions for Margie. I think we should have 2 Rob K chats, one re his work and one re the connection system..."

Deena says, 'Bruce's email is"

SarahAtkinson says, "thank you!"

Julianne says, "Good question Jill, I wasn't thinking about outreach so much, but I should have been..."

JenniferL agrees with Julianne re: Rob's work

Deena says, 'also, Eastgate Systems page has material on nonfiction research stuff,"

scottrettberg says, " I would say both. We'll probably start out mostly within our community, but our focus is really on readers as much or more than it is on writers."

Julianne says, "The new handholds for newbies here in LinguaMOO will be really important when we bring in new people..."

Jill says, "ok"

JenniferL says, "I'd also like to see us discuss the interaction between the 'straight text' online lit community and the hypertext community"

Julianne nodes to JenniferL

Jill [to Julianne]: new handholds? you mean like mentors for newbies? or just good instructions?

jmcdaid says, "how about someone re:business models and future directions?"

Deena says, 'yep, that would be good. I could get MJ Rose, who is a straight text epubber..."

Deena says, "@more"

scottrettberg says, " I think it would be great to have a topic chat on business models. "

Julianne [to Jill]: "All I know is that the instructions for newbies (like me) have gotten a lot better since I first visited here...I'm really impressed.

SarahAtkinson says, "JenniferL...a good idea. I work for an academic publisher and they either scratch their head or look at me askance when I bring up 'hypertext' or propose the idea of a work published in electronic form only"

margie seconds Julianne--

Adnan [to jmcdaid]: yeah, like techniques for designing a hypertext for multiple platforms

JenniferL says, 'I'm thinking of all the 'straight text' e magazines that have established audiences ... some of them quite large ... that have been around since the early web days"

Deena says, 'Sarah, you might join the e-pub list, they do a lot of academic publishing online."

SarahAtkinson says, "oh yes, I see"

Julianne [to SarahAtkinson]: Does Scott have your email address?

Jill says, "wow, i just searched amazon - they do have Eastgate hypertexts (well a few) but they're on special order and no one's's reviewed them. so if anyone feels called.."

Deena says, 'Jennifer, can you get me names?"

scottrettberg says, " If you have specific ideas from chats, please forward them to deena at (think that's right) and cc: me at"

Deena says, 'yes, that is right."

JimRosenberg says, "Scott, I'd like you to talk about the tools part of ELO."

JenniferL says, "yes Deena ... I would think some of the ILEF members would be perfect ... this is audience building tho ... it's certainly not immediate sales/cash"

scottrettberg says, " Deena and I will try to put together a six month schedule"

Deena says, 'Ok everyone, start reviewing the Eastgate texts on Amazon !"

Jill laughs

Julianne grins

SarahAtkinson says, "Deen, how to I join E-pub?"

Deena says, 'email me and ask, but the e-mail address is:"

Deena says, ""

SarahAtkinson says, "thank you"

JenniferL says, "Scott ... have you thought about sending someone to AWPfrom ELO this year?"

Deena says, 'So we want business models, straight text folks, hypertext aspects like collaborating and connection systems"

jmcdaid says, "sorry -- AWP ?"

Deena says, 'We REALLY need to get a way to coordinate conferences and get hypertext folks at a wide variety."

scottrettberg says, " The tools program will probably not fully launch right off the bat, but let me go into that a bit. The idea of the program will be to make applications accessible to writers, and to develop a review database of applications. Eventually, we'd like to line it up so that electronic lit authors can get tools free or at a substantial discount. We're going to start by putting up reviews, though."

Deena says, 'Scott, are you working with Rob on that as well? "

scottrettberg says, " Yeah, I'll probably go to the AWP again this year. Maybe we can get a reading together."

JenniferL says, "ack: Associated (?) Writing Programs ... tends to operate at the University level"

SarahAtkinson says, "I've been posting links to Eastgate and other e-places to the American Assoc of Academic Publishers list: I get a few interested responses from time to time, but lots of 'snobbiness' too. I'm hoping that ELO can help ease some of that"

Julianne says, "long term speaker idea - someone from the game building community who can interpret for us. They have some tools we could use. (Can be used for more than 1st person shooters)"

Deena says, 'Can we get a calendar at ELO with all the conferences and who is going to what?"

margie says, "John, American Writing Programs--"

JimRosenberg says, "Well, I guess my concern is *creation* of tools. there's NOTHING you can buy that does spatial hypertext!"

scottrettberg says, " I think that both Rob and William Gillespie will be working on the tools program."

JenniferL says, "Julianne _yes yes yes re gamers"

JenniferL says, "thanks Margie :blush'

margie says, "I think I might be wrong--could be is Associated--so there you go!!! Blush too"

RobKendall says, 'me and some others will be giving a hypertext reading at AWPthis year"

scottrettberg says, " Yes, the creation of tools will also be a big concern. We'll try to develop a facility for the concentrated discussion of what we need -- ie the spatial hypertext tool, so that we can go to application developers with specifics"

Deena says, 'Jim, yes. Maybe we can get a programmer guest, too. for chats. But we need good tools."

JenniferL says, "wonderful Rob :)"

Julianne says, "Sarah has raised a good question, how snobby is ELO going to be? Dare I suggest "prestigious but friendly"?"

SarahAtkinson says, ":)"

JimRosenberg says, "For instance: I've been working with this really neat tool called Jamba. Interleaf is *smothering* it. Can we do something about situations like that?"

Deena says, 'the e-pubbers just went through a very decisive battle over this one."

scottrettberg says, " I like that characterization, Julianne."

Julianne grins, but then turns sad at news about Jamba - will write JimR off-line -

Deena says, 'I think prestigious but friendly would work well--it is just how we define what friendly means."

Julianne says, "friendly: encouraging more readers and writers and publishers to get involved"

JenniferL says, "Cat friendly as opposed to dog friendly ??"

Deena says, 'the e-pubbers wanted to resstrict membership to published works, royalty paying, etc. This set off a firestorm."

Julianne laughs out loud at Jennifer's question

scottrettberg says, " that's the tick."

Deena says, 'so we may want to let anyone in, and then do the prestige with ELO recommends..."

Deena starts looking for the ticks on her cat...

Julianne says, "Agree - the recommendations and awards can be really stringent - called out on the site - while still keeping a welcoming feel."

margie says, "Write it and they will come?"

Julianne blushes, hearing itself sound like a marketing pitch

Deena says, 'I think we should fix the database first, recommend tools and find ways to resurrect tools like JAMAB and then do the prestige stuff."

SarahAtkinson says, "well, i think the Web is always less intimidating anyway."

scottrettberg says, " We are going to have a membership program of some kind. Most of our programs will remain open in nature, but we're going to look for some support from within the community, and there will be some benefits to givers."

Deena says, 'How so, Sarah? Maybe the friendly web stuff can draw people into the intimidating hypertext stuff"

Deena says, 'Scott, you have been doing a lot on the business side with this"

JimRosenberg says, "So, ELO is constituting itself as T-H-E establishment of electronic literature?"

Deena gives scott a hand. Nicely cut off at the wrist.

JenniferL says, 'do a lot of you still have a sense that the general public is very intimidated/put off by hypertext??"

Deena says, 'Jennifer, oh yes. I still have a hard time explaining to e-pubbers what we are doing!"

margie says, "Jim--might as well fill the vacuum."

SarahAtkinson says, "well, I mean there is no one there to make you feel if you don't know much about wine you can read about it online at, not intimidation. So, I guess some introductions to what exactly hypertext is, how to read it, how to select a title???"

Deena says, 'Margie, yes, we need a one place where lots of folks can join in and get the energy going."

Julianne [to JimRosenberg]: "Not sure 'establishment' is the right word. More of an activist organization?

scottrettberg says, " I think that the general public is starting to get over their fear. Things like your piece on Pif www. are helping that happen."

Jill [to Deena]: do the sequential e-lit people see ELO as opposed to them? competitors?

JenniferL says, "Sarah that's an excellent idea"

Deena says, 'Sarah, maybe we can do an intro to hypertext on this database."

margie says, "Jill, when they pay attention at all?"

Deena says, 'Jill, the e-pubbers really don;t know about ELO. They are pretty confused."

Deena says, 'We need to get the word out."

JenniferL says, "scott ... I think the reviews tho in that issue (of sites and texts) show a less forgiving nature"

Deena says, 'Scott, if you can give me a press release that is updated and explains the ELO aims, I can send it out."

Deena says, 'Jennifer, what issue?"

Jill says, "ah"

JenniferL says, "the commentary editor at has said he still feels hypertext is very much an 'inside' game"

scottrettberg says, " Deena, I want to do that in about two weeks, when we have the new templates up and the directory operational."

JenniferL says, "the current Hypertext issue at Pif"

SarahAtkinson says, "I'd be happy to spread the word amongst my colleagues and pals"

Jill says, "but will ELO include sequential e-literature? "

scottrettberg says, " Sarah, please do."

Deena jumps up and down and nods. YES. TELL EVERYONE about hypertext. Gets out the soap box and looks for more evangelists

JenniferL says, 'sorry to bring this up but it worried me"

scottrettberg says, " yes, I think that ELO will include sequential eliterature."

Julianne nods at Scott's remark

SarahAtkinson says, "Wow, I didn't even know Pif was publishing hypertext now. that was the first Ezine I published a story in (the old fashioned, linear sort)"

SarahAtkinson says, "Scott, Deena, anyone, if you'll forward a press release

to me at, I can pass it around"

Deena says, 'Jennifer, it is a very valid point. We need to 1) show hypertext is easy to read. 2) have a high standard so that even folks reading it for the first time can get it. 3) make it interesting. THese may not be compatible ideals"

margie says, "I think Jennifer's issue about Pif is important--we can't very well get the word out if zines like Pif are trashing hypertext."

Jill [to JenniferL]: yes, i can understand that the ht community would seem "inside" in a way because its small but at the same time people are so open so welcoming and eager for new people (at least i felt welcomed the first time i met ht people in pittsburgh last year) i suppose most readers aren't going to turn up at ht conferences though ;)

scottrettberg says, " definitely. Also, our mailing list is currently available off our main site, on egroups. You just sign up, and we'll get you all our announcements, etc."

Julianne says, "Rather than starting a flame war with Pif, ELO could just rise above it, invite everyone into the tent."

JenniferL says, "Deena ... or perhaps that hypertext is 'different' to read .... that a readers expectations need to be different than they are for linear text"

Sarah (asleep) is not currently logged in.

Adnan says, "is Pif trashing hypertext? or bridging the gap between Eastgate and "sequential e-lit" readers?"

Julianne tries to see who is interested in a round of Kum-ba-ya (joke)

scottrettberg says, " We may end up going with a different list, but we'll port everybody over if we change."

jmcdaid says, "big tent sounds right"

Deena says, 'Yep, I think we can just rise above these kinds of comments. We have to."

JenniferL says, 'I don't think a flame war is necessary ... they offered to let me do a review on anything they had reviewed this past time ... so I think they're open"

scottrettberg says, " definitely big tent"

SarahAtkinson says, "I think I signed up for that already? :)"

Deena says, 'I haven't read the commentaries yet, but will. "

scottrettberg says, " an international big tent"

JenniferL says, "humongous tent :)"

Deena says, 'Scott, in this case, the more the merrier."

jmcdaid says, "with logos on the flaps, I hope..."

Julianne claps (and wonders whether it's time to toast Scott?)

jmcdaid says, "for revenue"

Deena gets out the toaster and the bread.

JenniferL says, "toast him how, julianne??? ;0 marmalade or jam?"

Deena says, 'John, yes, revenue will be important to this."

You sense that JenniferL is looking for you in Eliterature.

It pages, "oops we're thinking the same"

scottrettberg says, " thanks a lot everyone. I'm going to have to get going (need to do some work in excel (ugh) for tomorrow."

Jill says, "i need to get to bed guys - good luck and i enjoyed the chat :) and scott, i'd love to help getting the web/moo stuff set up."

Julianne says, "I think we drank all the coke - maybe with marmalade then - here's to you scott.'

Jill waves goodbye

JenniferL says, 'Really good to hear your ideas Scott :)"

margie says, "Thanks to Scott and Deena--what fun to talk to everyone!!"

Jill has disconnected.

scottrettberg says, " But could you splash up the time on the next chat, deena. Thanks everyone!"

JimRosenberg says, "Bye Scott, Bye Jill!"

Deena says, "Thank you all for coming!"

Deena says, "@more"

jmcdaid says, "thanks to Scott and Deena!"

RobKendall says, 'thanks, everyone. goodbye"

Julianne waves bye

Deena says, 'I will post this transcript and send it to Bill Bly."

JenniferL says, 'night all ... thanks Deena "

Deena says, 'Please e-mail me if you would like a copy'

jmcdaid waves handkerchief

JenniferL has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove JenniferL.

Deena says, 'Or just come to @eliterature tomorrow"

Related Links: