Chat Transcript: January 21, 2001

"Jumpin' at the Diner"--A Hypertext Jukebox of great web works In Spring 2000, Riding the Meridian featured a "Progressive Dinner Party"--a celebration of women creating English-language literature on the WWW (curated by Carolyn Guertin and Marjorie Coverley Luesebrink). The Winter 2000 edition of Riding the Meridian features "Jumpin' at the Diner"--A spankin' new survey of web-work created by men, curated by Marjorie Coverley Luesebrink with Jennifer Ley, and commentary by Jay Bolter and Stephanie Strickland.

We will cover:

M.D. Coverley (Marjorie Coverley Luesebrink, MFA) writes electronic hypermedia fiction. Her interest in hypertext fiction and web hypermedia dates to 1995, when she published "The Virtual Mausoleum," one of the early web narratives. Her full-length novel, Califia, is available on CD-ROM from Eastgate Systems. Her web short stories and poetry have appeared in Iowa Review Web, Beehive, Alt-X, frAme,Riding the Meridian, Cauldron and Net, Salt Hill, New River, Enterzone, Aileron, and in publication of the trAce community. Her work has been featured at the Guggenheim Museum in New York, at the Transcriptions Series at UC Santa Barbara, at the Digital Arts Center at UCLA, and on-line at trAce (Nottingham University, UK), at the TP21CL ( Technology Platforms for the 21st Century) at Brown University, Blast 5 (Alt X), and Room Without Walls. She curated the collection of women writing on the web with Carolyn Guertin, "The Progressive Dinner Party" (Riding the Meridian, Spring 2000) and a survey of men in web hypermedia, "Jumpin' at the Diner" in the Fall 2000 issue of Riding the Meridian. Her non-fiction work has been published extensively both on line and in print. She is a founding member of the Board of Directors of the Electronic Literature Association. Marjorie Luesebrink lives in Newport Beach, CA and teaches writing at Irvine Valley College.

Stephanie Strickland's manuscript, "V," won the 2000 Alice Fay Di Castagnola Award from the Poetry Society of America. Her most recent essay on hypermedia, "Dali Clocks: Time Dimensions of Hypermedia" has just appeared in the wEBaRts issue of ebr ( "Errand Upon Which We Came," a Web poem created with M.D. Coverley, is forthcoming in Cauldron and Net. "To Be Here as Stone Is," also created with M.D. Coverley, was published in Riding the Meridian. Strickland's "Ballad of Sand and Harry Soot" was chosen for an Best of the Net award, and True North, her full-length hypertext poem from Eastgate Systems, won a Salt HillHypertext Prize. Recent print articles about hypertext and new media appear in American Letters & Commentary 12 and the Jan/Feb issue of Poets and Writers. Her print volumes of poetry include _True North_, _The Red Virgin: A Poem of Simone Weil_, and _Give the Body Back._

Founder of the internet literary magazine Riding the Meridian, much of Jennifer Ley's newest work is in the field of hypertext and hypermedia. Examples can be found on the web at SUNY Buffalo's Electronic Poetry Center, in the web journals Iowa Review Web, Cauldron and Net, frAme4, The Animist, Snakeskin, and Conspire, and in the trAce anthology: My Millennium. Ley's web works have been exhibited on the NJN/PBS Series, State of the Arts, at Digital Arts and Culture '99, SIGGRAPH 2000 Art Gallery, the Ink.ubation Salon sponsored by trAce online writing community, as well as at digital conferences planned this year in South Africa and Eastern Europe.

Related Links

Start log: Sunday, January 21, 2001 2:34:49 p.m. CST

Margie quietly enters.

Deena says, "Hi Margie"

Margie says, "Hi Deena"

Deena shares a URL...<>.

Deena says, "The URL on the side shows what we are discussing and provides links to Jumpin' at the Diner "

Margie says, "Deena! oh, that is cool. How do you whisper?"

Deena says, "Type "Page name message". Actually that is page, but it works better. "

Margie says, "Ok, do you do it from normal, or say--and do you use the quote marks? I have not been able to get this to work."

Deena says, "Margie, close, but take out the " mark first. Just type page."

Bobbyrabyd arrives.

Margie says, "Hi Bobby!"

Margie says, "Deena! can you help?"

Bobbyrabyd says, "Hi Margie . . . great to "See" you."

Margie says, "Hey Bobby, how is 2001 treating you?"

Bobbyrabyd says, "Well, thanks . . . there's a foot of snow on the ground here in RI. How's your power holding out?"

Margie says, "No outage yet today, but if I disappear, you will know what has happened!"

Deena says, "There is a lot of snow here, as well..."

Deena says, "Have you had rolling blackouts there?"

Bobbyrabyd says, "As always, no? Deena?"

Deena says, "Well, no, usually Denver doesn't have *much* snow."

Margie says, "We have not had rolling blackouts at my house, but there have been colleges in the area that have had to shut down. not ours, tho--we just have turned off the heat--egad."

Deena says, "My ISP just quit, so I am at Kinkos again..."

Bobbyrabyd says, "I'm curious . . . how does one 'view' Jumpin' at the Diner ?"

Margie says, "Do you mean that you can't get to it?"

Deena says, "Just click on the Diner button there, Bobby."

Bobbyrabyd says, "Ah! I see it! Thanks!"

Margie says, "D, I am going to get a coke--right back."

Deena serves cokes to all and sundry.

Deena says, "Bobby, how long have you been at Brown? Do you like the programs there?"

Bobbyrabyd says, "Great music! on the juke!""

Margie says, "Thanks!"

Bobbyrabyd says, "Deena . . . it's funny: two answers to that question. One of them is 6 months, the other is 13 years . . . (more)"."

Deena says, "Ok, how does that work with 6 months and 13 years?"

Bobbyrabyd says, "Deena: I started studying here in '87, but only last summer got hired full-time."

Deena says, "Ahh. Which program did you study under?"

Bobbyrabyd says, "English/Literature and Creative Writing."

Deena says, "I would love to hear more about the Brown program sometime..."

Scott, a.c.chapman, Tom, JimR, and Stephanie/Janet arrive.

Deena serves coke, hot chocolate, and more caffeine to get us psyched to enter the Diner

Deena takes orders in the Diner on roller skates.

Deena says, "Can people see the URL on the right side of the screen? <>."

Scott says, "Nice, Deena. handy."

Bumpy Guest arrives.

Deena rushes around greeting newcomers and taking orders on her diner roller skates.

Deena says, "On this site, you can see a list of authors featured in Jumpin' at the Diner ."

Stephanie/Janet says, "Hi everyone--Janet's typing for Stephanie."

Deena says, "Jumpin' at the Diner is the male counterpart for the Progressive Dinner Party in Spring 2000's Riding the Meridian (which we discussed February 23, 2000 )."

Deena says, "Marjorie Luesebrink curated both of these and Stephanie Strickland and Jay Bolter commented."

Margie says, "There are forty men featured in Jumpin' at the Diner--but we found, but the end of the time we were working, we could have had many more."

MazThing pops in.

Deena says, "People are still joining us.. I'm trying to sort out who is here"

Weishaus arrives.

Deena says, "Could people introduce themselves? We have some stellar guests here..."

Margie says, "I was particularly interested in all the new ways that these creative men were using new techniques in electronic literature--"

Margie says, "Hi Joel. "

Tom says, "I've been having problems with my digestion since the Diner appeared. anybody else?"

Deena surreptitiously hands out lots of tums.

Margie says, "Ha! it's the variety."

Marvella arrives from Lost Property Office.

jenniferley arrives.

Scott says, "Both of these projects have done a great deal to demonstrate the breadth and variety of work going on in the field right now. Hats off on Progressive Dinner Party and Jumpin' at the Diner."

Deena throws many hats in the air

lugh arrives.

Margie says, "I do think introductions would be good. Several of the artists featured in the Diner are here today."

Saada arrives.

Margie says, "Deena is on at Kinko's today, so she probably got a nod."

jenniferley says, "Mmm, I have to try to remember how to do all this !! ... wonderful to see so many people here."

Saada says, "Hello everyone."

Margie says, "Hello Saada. Scott, could you maybe start, followed by Bobby, Tom, Joel, and others I have missed?"

a.c.chapman says, "Goodness, there are so many of us."

Cybele (mEIKAL) arrives.

lugh says, "Deena's at Kinko's? Why? She has a box at home and at work."

Margie says, "Also, Reiner Strasser sent his regrets, his phone has been out all week."

jenniferley says, "Maybe Deena likes Kinkos ;)"

Deena says, "I am at Kinkos because my computer quit at the last second and CHISP dumped me out..."

Margie says, "Given the vagaries of technology, it is a wonder that so much good work gets done."

MazThing smiles and waves to Cybele, thinking 'long time no see/read.'

Marvella says, "Hmmm, am I invisible?"

MazThing says, "Nope."

Deena says, "HI Marvella, I can see you. Please introduce yourself :)"

Scott says, "I'm Scott Rettberg, one of the coauthors of the Unknown. I think William is planning on making it though who knows and I believe Dirk was planning on showing up late after a round of disc golf."

Marvella says, "Thanks, I thought I wasn't a mermaid anymore."

Deena hands rounds everyone's orders from the Diner, which just happen to be everyone's favorite foods and drinks.

Bobbyrabyd says, "Mmm! Mallomars!""

a.c.chapman says, "Can I get some catsup with these?"

Deena hands out never ending bottles of catsup and ketchup and mustard.

Weishaus says, "Can I use food stamps?"

Deena smiles and says all orders are on the house tonight

a.c.chapman says, "Thanks"

Cybele says, "Hi all mIEKAL here.."

Deena says, "I'm Deena, the chat host, trying to keep things in order. Thanks so much to all the authors featured in the Diner, Marjorie, Stephanie, Jay, Jennifer for doing all the hard work and showing up at the chat."

Margie says, "Hey mIEKAL, but who would know. MIEKAL and is also featured in the Diner."

Stephanie/Janet says, "Anyone here from Steph's 526 class?"

Scott offers students in Steph's class extra credit for attending trAce/ELO chats

Bobbyrabyd takes extra credit and runs, exclaiming like D. Duck, "Mine! mine! all mine!"

Cybele says, "I think I forgot how to MOO... its gonna take me a bit "

Deena shares a URL...<>.

jenniferley says, "Nice work Deena !!"

Margie says, "So, Bobby Rabyd, Joel Weishaus, Tom Bell (I am guessing), MIEKAL, and who else from the Diner juke box here?"

Deena says, "You can click to see the commentaries, and scroll down to see the authors"

gaberbocchus arrives from trAce

Deena says, "Scott, a.c. Chapman from Impermanence Agent. Noah is protesting at the capitol today... :)"
Editor's note: see the
chat with the Impermanence Agent authors (Noah Wardrip Fruin, a.c. chapman, Brion Moss, and Duane Whitehurst) on November 05 , 2000. The current chat was held on the same day as Bush's inauguration.

a.c.chapman says, "Y'all should call me Adam. Most recently, I participated in one of these chats for a project called The Impermanence Agent which was done with Noah Wardrip-Fruin (who sends his hellos) and Brion Moss and Duane Whitehurst."

jenniferley says, "Good for Noah. " Deena cheers Noah on and is there in spirit.

You see a shimmering bright light as Jan suddenly materializes out of thin air.

Margie says, "Good to have you, a.c."

Deena says, "Hi Jan, we are settling in to talk with authors and commentators and curators on the chat."

Jan finds a seat in Eliterature.

Deena says, "Stephanie, you really address this in your commentary, but what common threads do you see in these works?"

Stephanie/Janet says, "The differences are at least as important as what's in common."

lugh says, "I heard that."

a.c.chapman says, "Stephanie, please elaborate."

Deena says, "What do you see as the differences?"

Deena gestures to all to jump in.

Cybele says, "Content."

Tom says, "I'm focused on food these days as my infopoem fGId has turned into a real-life social movement related to ibs. I'll mention it once and then won't bore you all.""

Deena says, "Tom, I really am interested to see how the poem turns into a real life movement."

Stephanie/Janet says, "I see forms emerging very distinct from print precursors. Certainly Talan's piece, for instance."
Editor's note: This is Lexia to Perplexia winner of the trAce/ Alt-X New Media contest. We'll talk with Talan on February 4, 2001.

Deena says, "Meikal, what about the content?"

Margie says, "I think that we could find a huge range to talk about, but I wonder if folks noticed how many different ways that links were used, for example."

Cybele says, "That's what I always notice most about web works, & this collection is no different"

Deena says, "Are there more differences and variations in works now than say a year or two ago?"

Margie says, "Some navigation was by standard word-to-word, some by drag-drop, some by sliding panels, some by mouseover. and then there were the pushed links, done with flash...."

Tom says, "It's complicated but there now is an internet email group bombing the FDA and public citizen with e-mails - I'll say more bc later if you want"

jenniferley says, "I think there are Deena ... but that's because the tech gives us more options"

Deena says, "I really noticed the different ways people used technology, Suture and Rainbow factory have such very different feels from Sailing, for example"

Stephanie/Janet says, "(and from each other)"

April_Guest quietly enters.

Deena says, "Hi April_Guest, we are talking about the many different ways authors use links and technologies. Please introduce yourself :)"

Deena says, "How are authors using these technologies? How are we engaging in these different forms?"

Margie says, "Yes, we are getting such a range of look-feel--the dif, for example between Joel's work and Peter Howard's Rainbow, and then a.c. and Noah's Impermanence Agent."

Deena says, "Authors, could you talk a bit about WHY you chose to use the technology you chose? Why you chose to present links in the way you chose? And please introduce your works. You can share the URLs by typing @URL http://www.whatever..."

Cybele says, "That's an easy answer for me...When I did that particular piece almost 4 years ago, its all I knew about."

JimR says, "Ahem. Some of us don't use links."

Margie says, "Hey Jim--welcome. But, in the sense that the computational folks use it, the morphing text is a link, as well, no?"

jenniferley says, "Or a mouse over ??"

Deena grins at JimR--right. The word symphonies that you are working with really do transcend the link, Jim."
Editor's note: see Jim Rosenberg's home page for a list of these works.

JimR says, "No Margie, I don't think so."

Margie says, "What we know is that this variety is a fairly new phenomenon--two years ago, we would have had a great selection, but no where near the tech variety."

Stephanie/Janet says, "mIEKAL, could you talk more about how your piece connects up with real life? (Hi, Maura!)"

Maura arrives and says, "I made it.""

Deena says, "Hi Maura, glad you made it. We are talking to authors featured in the Diner about why they chose forms, links, and technologies"

Cybele says, "Hmmmm...Not sure how to answer that question....For me all work that exists on the computer is its own self-sustaining reality. Not a simulation"

Weishaus says, "Mine evolved from work on paper, developing a form of hyperlinks before the WWW arrived.""

Deena says, "Joel, how did the paper links transform into electronic links?"

Tom says, "S/j. are you asking mIEKAL or me? "

Stephanie/Janet says, "Both of you, Tom -- "

Weishaus [to Cybele]: "It's Joel speaking. Yes, that's true."

Stephanie/Janet says, "Janet asks, don't some folks consider morphing text "Light links"?"

a.c.chapman says, "Light links?"

jenniferley says, "Byte links ??"

Marvella says, "No calories?"

a.c.chapman laughs

Stephanie/Janet says, "Let's put it this way--can someone explain how a mouseover is or isn't a link?"

lugh says, "No calories, but a few ergs..."

Deena passes out calorie free and delicious links, light links, and smart morphing links

Tom says, "My latest begins with a day on an internet self-help group that has been turned to a group to petition the FDA - it's happening right now. It's both a poem and a piece in process. The interactions and connections people are making are actually happening now on the internet."

Marvella says, "One thing leads to another"

Pilarius arrives.

Margie says, "Hi Pilarius--can you tell us about yourself?"

Deena says, "Hi Pilarius, we are talking about the different ways authors featured in the Diner use links and technology."

lugh says, "It's a passive link - you don't go anywhere from which to come back. It's like a window into which you look while walking down a street; links are the intersections and doorways."

Stephanie/Janet says, "Nice metaphor, lugh!" lugh says, "Thanks."

Cybele says, "Who's lugh?"

Deena urges everyone to introduce themselves again.

lugh says, "Russ Bixby, geek at large and unix zealot. Hi."

Margie says, "Well, then we need some more names for links, something we might have suspected."

a.c.chapman says, "That's interesting. Do you still consider it a work of literature or do you think of it more as a temporal performance? "

Marvella says, "Temporal performance is a nice phrase." a.c.chapman says, "Thanks"

Deena says, "Have we ever really defined what a link is? Do we need to or should we be wary of such definitions"

lugh says, "I do believe that definitions are important; with common definitions, forums such as this will run more smoothly, no?"

Deena says, "I don't know if definitions help or hinder...I'm beginning to wonder."

JimR says, "The issue of the difference between the kind of structures I use and links is complicated. I use structures where a group of peers are aggregated *together*. The concept of "Link" doesn't really do this."

Marvella says, "Would you use any architectural references, Jim?"

jenniferley nods at JimR's distinction.

a.c.chapman says, "Could you define piece in progress or what that means to you?"

Margie says, "Yes, Jim, but that is a function of the narrow categorical definition of link so far--but I think we will all benefit from your forthcoming paper about this!!!"

JimR says, "Thanks for the plug, Margie!"

JimR says, "Marvella, I'm not sure what you mean by architectural."

Marvella says, "Spatial, for one thing.You used the word structural.""

Deena says, "There are so many different kind of connections --temporal, physical, etc..."

lugh says, "They *can* hinder, by forming a thought-box from which not all may escape, but are also useful when relating to one another. You can't tell someone the way to the airport w/o words such as "Right" and "East."

Cybele says, "Jim, I have to say that I learned more about hypertext in yr 45 minute class last year than just about anywhere else."

Marvella says, "Which I think of as architectural and here's another architect."

mez and clarissa arrive.

Deena says, "Hi Clarissa and mez, we are talking about different uses of structure and links in different works featured at the Diner."

Marvella says, "You're early like 6 something a.m.?" mez says, "Me marvella? no its 8.30 here now *a.m.*" Marvella says, "Ah, late."

Tom says, "2 people meet on the internet and decide they are going to write congress, for example. They look up the address and do it and encourage others to do it also."

Marvella says, "Seems like Tom is referencing a more social political realm and Jim something more interior and musical but correct me."

Deena says, "We are using links and connections to refer to so many things here Marvella!"

Deena passes around hot coffee and homemade cinnamon rolls and sausage links from the Diner.

lugh says, "Coffee. Hmmm... good idea. Be right back."

Cybele says, "Hi mez, mEIKAL here." mez says, "Wow, hey mIEKAL, long time no teXt:)" Cybele says, "I have my first real job in my life. Hard to get back to what's important." mez says, "N.deed, mIEKAL:)"

Deena says, "Margie, how did you chose the pieces to feature in the Diner?""

Margie says, "We started with a very long list of things to look at that I had been bookmarking for over a year--egad! and the first step was to visit them. Then, Jen, Steph, and I set up a viewing round, each of us would visit and comment. then we looked at the works together. The decision about individual works was not as hard as what to include. Net/art/literature fuses into other disciplines, as well."

Bobbyrabyd says, "In 1996, when I was constructing Sunshine '69, I asked myself: if narrative, like cyberspace, is a three-dimensional network, then what would seem to be its axes, its essential X, Y, and Z? I chose these three: time, space, point of view. The driver navigates the time trajectory by a schematic of the last six months of the 60s resembles one of those ecclesiastical calendars. In this case, the passenger may pick and choose from chapters attached to each of the '69-specific chapters. Every day of the week there's a different story from the death of the 60s. "

Margie says, "I consider Bobby's Sunshine to be a kind of classic (you can see the driver's side there)."

Deena says, "Bobby, Jim, a.c.. I think in a way you are all dealing with structure AS integral to the piece, yet the structures come out in many different ways. Impermanence agent is very temporal, Jim's work more spatial."

a.c.chapman says, "Say, I find that the pieces I work on also change as my knowledge of programming increases. Often I start by going high-fallutin' then scaling back and asking what's essential to a given piece. It's a different sort of "Structure" question that needs to be considered when writing. -- At the same time I try and steer clear from that whole "It's a poem because it looks like a swan" thing. structure needs to be as integral to a piece as any other part. sometimes that means inventing new ones and which also means new kinds of "Links".--so a definition can be squirrelly."

Tom says, "There are several conversations at once, but that's not bad?"
Editor's note: I move text so that the conversations appear somewhat more rational. If you have never watched the real logs unfold faster than your screen can hold the letters, come join us and party realtime!

Deena juggles lots of conversations at once and is dizzy at the end, but has a real great time.

Cybele says, "@more rest"

clarissa says, "Here it is already one hour later, so I prefer wine."

Deena passes out coffee that turns into wine on request.

lugh says, "What about automatic links; a mouseover being a bushwhacking href. I've done it and found it useful; how do you feel...?"

Deena says, "Lugh, what do you mean by bushwhacking?"

Scott gags on a glass of coffee that tastes like Chianti.

Deena thinks that wine/coffee may be a lot like this conversation--matching too many very different, very beautiful works...

Weishaus says, "Can we discuss 'new kinds of links.' I think this is an important avenue to see down.""

lugh says, "It's a surprise; the user is *not* expecting it."

Margie says, "Scott, I thought you had left!"

Tom says, "I want to throw out another piece: I find myself moving away from technology more and more and wonder if I'm alone"

Cybele says, "What's a new kind of link Joel?"

lugh says, "A clickless hard link, in other words. Changes the page and all."

Deena says, "Tom, what do you mean by moving away from the technology?"

a.c.chapman says, "Do we mean links, or actions initiated by user or work?"

Scott says, "Got froze up when checking out one of the works, am back."

lugh says, "Unix doesn't "Froze up." Hrmph!"

Bobbyrabyd says, "Tom: 'throw up' a URL! "

Tom says, "Back to paper and pencil - away from tools and links."

jenniferley says, "I don't think you're alone in that Tom."

lugh says, "I use paper and pencil; or a static page w/ASCII art or such, but not to the exclusion of other mechanisms by which to impart my vision to another."

Stephanie/Janet says, "Joel, do you feel that way, too?"

Deena says, "The basic meaning of link is to connect--which I think includes Jim's juxtapositions (ducks wildly here), and the spatial, and more."

Bobbyrabyd says, "Margie: can you speak to what (if anything) you found peculiarly 'male' about any of these pieces?"

Cybele says, "Yikes."

Weishaus says, "Someone just mentioned this, and I was wondering if this leads anywhere interesting, as I'm always looking for different ways to leap to reference materials.""

JimR says, "The word link is getting us in trouble. The real issue is *DOING*. What happens structurally is different from what's there to *do*."

Deena says, "All--how do you see structure interacting with the meaning of a piece?"

mez says, "Tom and Jen, my m.pat.ous is moving 2, stretching b-yond the techne, though as yet I'm not sure 2 where x.actly...."

Margie says, "Oh, yes, Bobby, I think I can! (crawls under table)."

Deena says, "Jim, can you tell us more about clarifying between structure and doing?"

Deena passes around more m.pat.ous ness to all

mez says, ":)"

Scott says, "Unknown were thinking similar to Bobby -- we didn't worry about time so much, but were thinking navigation in terms of space and cognition/linguistic connection."

jenniferley says, "Correct me if I'm wrong Joel, but isn't the structure of your works also a trope for how the brain functions (that's simplistic but you get my gist??)"

Bobbyrabyd waxes aggressive, "Well!?" ;-)

Weishaus says, "I certainly use paper to make notations, carry around a pad. I'm lost without a pen in my pocket.""

Scott shares a URL...<>.

Deena says, "Scott, Dirk, how did you use the topographic map as structure in the Unknown?"

lugh says, "To an extent. A sculpture is qualitatively different to a photograph, as illustrated in CE3K."

Deena says, "How do people use structures as trope? I am thinking of the Rainbow Factory, which uses a great over/under structure to show the differences in presentations..."

JimR says, "Take a typical button. What's there to do is click on it. But that doesn't tell you whether what happens does or does not have a bigger structural context. (This is pretty hard to explain in chat ...)"

Deena says, "Jim, yes, and the button doesn't show what the relationship is to the structure."

JimR says, "Right"

Tom says, "How do I share a URL?"

Deena says, "To share URLS, type @URL http://www.whatever"

Tom says, "Maybe my mouse is broken?"

Margie says, "Scrolling out the little one--Bobby, I think that one of the things that characterizes this collection is a high degree of risk and experimentation. We saw many clever things in this collection--some working, and some taking real time and effort to master. I think men are more confident that folks will take the time to work through the technical, etc. "

Weishaus says, "Jen, yes, that's true, but I think of it more as a quest of the brain.""

a.c.chapman says, "Margie, do you find that as a constant or something changing?"

Deena says, "Margie, Stephanie, how did you see the experimentation and branching out--was this experimenting with technology, structure, content??"

Cybele says, "Jim, by doing you mean what the reader does or the author?"

Margie says, "The next thing I noticed among the men was a kind of shorthand for experience--that is, they were more certain that the default assumption would fall their way--"

a.c.chapman says, "The default assumption?"

JimR says, "mIEKAL, I was thinking of the reader, but of course the issue extends to both."

Bobbyrabyd says, "Kind of like the classism implicit in S. A. T. questions, Margie?"

Cybele says, "I don't understand Margie? default assumption?"

Deena says, "I would like to hear more about the default assumptions... such as?"

Margie says, "a.c.--I am not sure if this is a change--I would think it characterized work by men from the get-go--witness M. Joyce's guard links--"

MazThing has disconnected.

Scott says, "Well, I guess we were thinking that the what we were thinking was with the map was that the work as a whole is a storyworld -- you can navigate it in a spatial way, like you would zoom in on a satellite map, or in the way that you would navigate your way through the transit system of a major city, switching train lines."

Cybele says, "So what things an a reader do other than click, enter text, & use the mouse?"

Weishaus says, "I second that: 'The default assumption.' What does this mean?""

Margie says, "a.c. that is, if something isn't spelled out, what is the assumption the reader would be expected to make to have the piece work or make sense--women seem to feel that they need to background more carefully, that they are not as likely to be understood."

Deena says, "Yes, I noticed that in Alan Sondheim and Barry Smilie's Sailing, actually. where the assumption was that you would just go to the bay instead of the city..."

Margie says, "Yes, Deena, I think that Sailing is a perfect example of the risk-taking and the assumption grounding...."

Deena says, "Actually, Bobby Rabyd's Sunshine '69 is the same way--we assume we are in the driver's seat."

jenniferley says, "Which might lead one to say that work by men is often more linear"

Stephanie/Janet says, "I don't think that's true... (men more linear)"

lugh says, "Hmmm. I'd always thought I was digital rather than linear..."

jenniferley says, "I don't think it is necessarily true anymore."

JimR says, "There may be a limited vocabulary of what the reader does "in the small", but when you get to larger-level units it gets much more complicated."

Margie says, "I am not sure that is more linear, although that may be, but it is more spare in the sense of covering alternative takes."

Guy quietly enters.

Deena says, "Hi Guy, we are talking about the assumptions in the pieces featured in the Diner--what are assumptions from a male point of view?"

Cybele says, "I must not be male..."

jenniferley says, "But I think there was a time when it seemed true of hypermedia work by men."

a.c.chapman says, "Has anyone seen the piece Darcey Stienke did for adaweb?"

Deena says, "a.c., do you have that URL?"

mez fumbles with a gap, a meaning curve, a taste of text....

jenniferley says, "Well you're different mIEKAL ;)"

Weishaus says, "Margie, that doesn't sit right. Anyway, the term 'women,' or 'men,' I don't think we can talk that broadly any more, happily."

lugh says, "Tell it to Piers Anthony."

mez echos Joel, mumbling thru the ether][ealality]

Margie says, "Joel, of course you are right that it is hard to generalize like that--but I was responding to the things I had noticed."

Bobbyrabyd says, "Can we still talk, 'male' and 'female' happily?"

Marvella says, "Hmmm, working with Reiner, I didn't have much of a male/female distinction."

Tom shares a URL for his poem Metaphor <>

Cybele says, "Folks, remember some of us are on a slow connection... too many URLS quickly is really tying up my browser..."

lugh says, "That's funny- I've got two T1s here and am using a text-only system - no browser..."

Tom says, "Go to near the bottom to iFGd."

Cybele says, "What are we looking at?"

mez torques masculine, feminine, triats n.stead of absolutes, jigsaws instead of gen][re][ders

a.c.chapman says, "Le.cle"

mez cs a limp button @ the botTom of the p][ure][age, playful n.scribed on its shining chrome cover, dust on its surface and grooved smooth

Tom says, "The drug in question was only for women but it helped men also."

Weishaus says, "Of course this defeats the purpose of separating men from woman by their work. Why was it approached this way?""

jenniferley says, "Speaking as the publisher of both Jumpin' at the Diner and the Progressive Dinner Party ... I think there was a time, early last year, when it seemed women were more playful in their use of tech ... but I think that has changed , and of course, like any generalization, all/part of this is false."

Deena says, "I am not sure there is a clear distinction between men and women...this may be more of a distinction between the works a year ago, and those now? Yet, Margie, how many of the works in the Diner are new this year?"

Marvella says, "Maybe it's a search for distinctions and inclusiveness."

Bobbyrabyd says, "Margie: I was assuming that, because women were looked at first with Dinner Party (not unusual to have a women's-only forum), it was time to do guys. . ."

Deena says, "Jen, Margie, Steph, if you do a compendium next year, would it be separated along gender lines?"

lugh says, "Deena, you've seen my work. Is it "Male," "Female" or neither?"

Margie says, "The reason we did an issue on men was because we had already done the women's issue for Women's history month--and so we wanted to honor men, and by that time the gender thing was set. I hope folks weren't offended, we should be able to note gender without it being a dirty word."

Weishaus says, "I didn't mean that men aren't different from women! Only that there are shades between, which I don't think apply well on the net."

Deena says, "I have never been good at distinguishing gender from a person's work..."

jenniferley says, "I think the time to make gender distinctions is over, for the present"

lugh says, "Presactly!"

Weishaus says, "Amen!""

Marvella says, "Um, I like sexy work."

mez resets the Gender Dis.tinct.ion Button.

Marvella says, "And that often means differences Viva."

Deena says, "I think it was a neat idea for the women's issue... I think there is a lot of under rumblings here about women in technology..."

Scott says, "I also think that there was a point in doing a collection that was just women first, since tech is generally such a testosterone laden field. I think the breadth and depth of the Progressive Dinner Party collection did a great deal to demonstrate how much of the most imp. work in e-lit is being done in e-lit."

Cybele shares a URL for mEIKAL aND and Marion Damon's erosion... <>.

Margie says, "Joel--the place that fine distinctions really don't apply is the MOO, too fast, too confusing."

Bobbyrabyd says, "Weishaus reminds me of Bornstein's collaboration in _Nearly Roadkill_ (print), which really works the cyber-distinctionlessness of genre."

lugh says, "Of course we're different, but the differences vary from person to person and there's a lot of overlap."

mez overlaps N links, hi-jinx :)

Deena says, "We have a lot of collaborations in the Diner--as shown by the URL now with mIEKAL and Maria. Could the collaborators talk about how collaborating in a hypertext shapes the work?"

lugh says, "Testosterone laden? You don't know many geeks..."

lugh says, ":)"

jenniferley says, "Well, Meridian did a women's issue 'first' as that honored a previous relationship the magazine had to do a women's issue each year with Conspire."

Cybele says, "Two levels of links here, the physical links, then the windows piled up on each other was you read"

jenniferley says, "Conspire being CK Tower's primarily text oriented online magazine"

Deena says, "Jennifer, do you have that URL?"

jenniferley says, ""

mez streams a cord of text, netwurkers fumbling thru files of static blooms, all wet N growing, po.10.ials fertile....

Margie says, "See, I didn't think that this needed to insist that there were polar opposites--some women's work is very risky, and some men's very padded, or something."

jenniferley says, "CK is doing another women's issue this year ... I am not"

Deena says, "Wait, is there any hypertext/new media work that is NOT risky?"

lugh says, "Tech writing. ;)"

Deena hands out cordials of text...

Cybele says, "Sure, there's a lot of derivative stuff out there..."

Deena passes out risks to all and sundry...

Margie says, "Oh Deena, I didn't mean risky in all the senses of doing this kind of tech, I meant in the backgrounding, in what the author expected the reader to do, without other information."

mez risk-takes, re-moults, re:vis][ion][s

Tom says, "I have felt at times that my drawing is my female side but it's not that simple."

Weishaus says, "Men are having an identity crisis now, which I think is good, although there's a danger."

Cybele says, "Joel, you gotta explain that one..."

Deena says, "Joel, is the identity crisis in the literature?"

jenniferley says, "I understand what you're saying Margie."

Tom says, "The identity is in the process."

lugh says, "Ahhh. A generalization. It's a wave phenomenon, a pendulum. I don't fancy myself all that different from my Khazak ancestors."

Deena says, "Ahh, yes, I think this goes back to expectations and default assumptions."

Molde Guest arrives.

Deena says, "Hi Molde, we are talking about assumptions and risk taking in hypertext writing."

Stephanie/Janet says, "I'm curious whether the male authors here found any reflection of their gender in this collection?"

mez wishes 4 a genderless ID, identic.caul twinned balances and life-n r gees....

Margie says, "It seems to me that identity is an ongoing question. At first it seemed like it could be resolved onceandfor all-but now we see that life is a journey"

Stephanie/Janet says, "(yes, strickland)"

a.c.chapman says, "I know that the risk/innovation level of the work I do is somewhat dependant on who I'm able to collaborate with and their knowledge base."

Weishaus says, "Deena. No, I mean in general, as women slowly take back, or balance, the power in societies. "

mez after-lifes, re[][ar][sloves....

Deena says, "Does that identity search show up in the writing and in the assumptions being made?"

a.c.chapman says, "It's interesting that we're discussing structure perhaps more than content (if we can distinguish)."

Cybele says, "I think this is one of the reasons that Im always attracted to gender ambiguous works..."

mez cs a silver ball][ancing act, complex n][

Margie says, "I thought that the fact that we could just present 39 women and 40 men seemed to suggest that we hoped to say, here they are, no hierarchies intended!"

Deena passes around identity crises life jackets and yummy all flavor life savers.

lugh says, "And who we are trying to reach, whether we are after a particular audience, wish to create a new audience or just don't give a rats ear and are simply creating to create."

Cybele says, "I think my audience is 200 years from now..."

Deena says, "Good question, lugh. Did you see a great difference in the audiences people were reaching?"

In the distance you hear someone's alarm clock going off. Smiley_Guest wavers and vanishes into insubstantial mist.

Marvella says, "Will you add to these anthologies?"

Tom says, "If I write I'm one person; if I draw, the action is another identity's."

Bobbyrabyd says, "Stephanie: it's kind of exhilarating to be grouped with men . . . reminds me of male encounter meetings in college in the 80s: no nee4d to be ashamed of gender, can come in touch with emotion and how we can help liberation of both genders (i.e.: resist violence)--and we all write!"

mez runs her][r][ fingahs ova the text, removing the lilts n weights, ab.solvent....

Deena says, "How do you see the Diner and Dinner Party influencing future anthologies?"

lugh says, "Yes - some work would appeal more to the angry, some more to the gentle. The angry-gentle were left hanging, though, and then there are the... you get the idea. Not a Q, BTW; just mentioning what affects our work, IMHO."

Scott says, "Sure. on the reflection of the gender. though the work involved women contributors, the unknown took on some qualities of 'typical' locker room or school-yard behavior. parts of it were a consciously boys playing dirty type of thing. I don't think that this was a negative thing necessarily, but its something we noticed. As did Cynthia Riz, who wrote feminist critique part of the unknown "

Margie says, "Actually, I think that the ELO directory is the natural place for this work to be continued. nothing like that existed when we started, for men. Although there was Carolyn Guertin's Assemblage for women"

jenniferley says, "I think the framing Margie created for both of these works is distinctive."

Marvella says, "I'm honored to be the only mermaid in the men's anthology."

Jan makes an announcement: If anyone who is currently using Lingua as a guest would like a full user account here, please click the REQUEST button in the Xpress tool bar and fill in the form. You can also request a character by sending me an email at Please provide the user name you want, your email address and your full name. Thank you.

Deena says, "Jan is the MOO meister and our MOO host. Three cheers for Jan."

Jan smiles.

Scott shares a URL...<>>.

jenniferley says, "Kate Hayles called the structure of Dinner Party an 'open work'"

Tom says, "What is an open work?"

mez carves a sexless frame from jen's air, a sculpture of both faces, act.u.all....

Andrea and Guy quietly enter.

Deena says, "Hi Andrea and guy, we are talking about the role of the Diner and Dinner Party in future anthologizing."

lugh says, "Gods and Thunders, this is a beast over a text connection. I want split screen!!!"

Bobbyrabyd says, "Margie: what's curious is that, in later indices that are truly hypertextual, readers would be able to filter/sort entries by gender, year published, whatever--transparent, "Ideology-free" indexing!"

lugh says, "Open work? Like, inviting participation or some such? Neat idea..."

jenniferley says, "We just have to hope Netscape or IE doesn't decide to rewrite how html functions yet again, right??"

mez open sauc codes, open window vent][ings][, o][h!][.pens and pencils...

Margie says, "Yay, Bobby, and that is kind of what we have with ELO directory --although not a gender category--everything else Rob K. and Nick could get in....folks can find most anything, now, and have fun"

jenniferley says, "I think she meant open as far as construction, but I shouldn't speak for her .."

The housekeeper arrives to remove Weishaus and Molde_Guest.

Deena says, "This goes back to what Margie started us with--how are people coping with the instability of the technology?"

lugh says, "I heard that, especially w/Netscape dumbing down functionality for 6.0 to be *more* like IE. Narf!"

Stephanie/Janet says, "Janet asks--do you design for a particular browser then, lugh?"

JimR says, "That's why I like things that play in Java space, where you don't depend on the browser [sic] for anything but a blank space."

mez leans down 2 the room's florr, a velvet sounding boarded surface, and listens....

Deena says, "BTW, we are doing the Online Writers workshop on the last Saturday of the month.. Next Sat is Joel Weishaus' work, Inside the Skull House and Feb will be Marjorie's work."

Margie says, "I think that open work referred to the fact that so many different forms of art/lit were flowing in, and there were so many different kinds of writing."

Scott says, "We're also going to add more filtering capacity to the ELO directory --although not a gender category--everything else Rob K. and Nick could get in....folks can find most anything, -- one thing we're hoping to get in this year is reader reviews, and eventually collaborative filtering."

Tom says, "I hit overload again Deena - these MOOS do me in. Goodbye, all"

The housekeeper arrives to remove Bobbyrabyd and Tom.

Deena says, "Thanks for coming!"

lugh says, "That's not as portable as one might wish, though. Too many doodads can be problematical..."

weishaus arrives. jenniferley says, "Welcome back Joel :)"

Deena says, "Hi welcome back Joel. Can you give the URL for your work for next week's writing workshop?"

weishaus says, "My connect failed. AOL! What a drag!"

Cybele says, "Jim are you saying that java is browser independent?"

Deena says, "There are so many issues as well that we have not covered"

Scott shares a URL...<>.

Margie says, "Thanks, Scott!!"

mez D.texts a soft murmuring, voices swooning in2 b&w, a soft echo of the page...

Cybele says, "Javascript certainly isn't..."

Margie says, "Joel, I am sorry we got off the topic of links--this is a hot one"

Bobbyrabyd reenters. Deena passes out horseless carriages to all and is so happy that they only quit once every five minutes!

lugh says, "Java functionality it tied somewhat to the browser, yes, and the platform as well, McNealy notwithstanding."

Deena is being sarcastic again, as her computer lies dying..

a.c.chapman says, "Some of the work I've been doing (like the Impermanence Agent) specifically exploits bugs/features in a particular browser, that will, in all likelihood be evolved out of that browser. So it'll be both dated and inaccessible very soon."

Deena says, "Yes, my work of short stories, Samplers, exploited a Storyspace bug, which got fixed before we could publish Samplers. Doing a retro-program took a lot of Eastgate's efforts!"

Cybele says, "That's a great idea a.c."

mez snatches 1 voice, a crooner's tongue, and stitches it 2 a lilting linked tone...

Margie says, "a.c., the issue of the browsers is quite discouraging."

Deena says, "We come back to archiving and inaccessibility once again..." and riverruns around in circles.

jenniferley says, "Adam, do you think that is something authors just have to accept right now ... that the work may be very temporal??"

Cybele says, "Sure would be nice to populate the internet with browser-free works."

Deena says, "Yet mEIKAL is writing for readers 2 centuries from now. How do you reconcile that?"

mez kant hear, can't speak, kant d-tect a pulse, connection dead, computer corpses...

Cybele says, "Its just 1s & 0s. Ones & zeros / binary code.... I think it's pretty sustainable..."

The housekeeper arrives to remove JimR and clarissa.

a.c.chapman says, "Well, I just think it's a different way of looking at things. Most print writers don't really think they'll be read in 80-200 years. I mean, realistically."

Margie says, "One of the things that is difficult about Diner is that some of the pieces ALREADY don't work on Net6--even Waterwater"

jenniferley says, "Well depending on their egos ;)"

mez molds a ivory stamp with the letters "Print Writers" backwards.

Deena magically copies the stamp for all of us

lugh says, "How would we do that? Browserless work for the PAC masses, I mean?"

Cybele says, "PAC?"

lugh says, "Point and Click - those who forget that there's a keyboard, too."

Andrea tiptoes out.

jenniferley thinks of the Amiga in her attic.

Deena says, "Margie, was browser capability a factor in deciding which works to show?"

Jan [to jenniferley]: I think as long as you adhere to the W3C standards, i.e. HTML or XML and avoid things like Flash etc your texts will stand a long time...thought pure ASCII is probably the safest if you want a text that lasts for a hundred years :)

Cybele says, "Set up something like napster... for hypertext."

mez washes her browserless face, her n.oh.sent code...

Stephanie/Janet says, "Janet says, it seems that if you're working on a long-life model (one that will work w/o tech), you're back to pens & paper, no?"

Margie says, "I wondered at first if I should try to keep the pieces current, and then couldn't figure out how do upgrade even my own!"

Deena says, "I wanted to ask how people set up their works--the approaches to long and short term survival seem very different."

JimR returns and armele arrives. JimR says, "Sorry folks, the olde Netscape croak got me ..."

Deena says, "Hi Armele, we are talking about archiving and working with hypertext works as the technology changes quickly."

jenniferley says, "Jan, but so much of the experimental work is more than text."

jenniferley says, "That would rule out so much of the work many of us like ... ack !!"

Scott says, "Jan has a point there. there."

lugh says, "Here! Here! ASCII forever!"

jenniferley says, "That should make mez happy. "

a.c.chapman says, "Back to structure as a part of the work."

Scott says, "S kind of a choice between durable and technically experimental everybody has to make."

Deena says, "Jim, can you share a URL on your work?"

JimR says, "Deena, you asked for a URL, here's one <>

Bobbyrabyd says, ""This piece, which I remember from TP21CL in '98, is visual ecstasy!" to JimR"

JimR says, "Thanks!"

Jan [to jeniferey]: yes, but experimentation is always on the cutting edge and so you have no guarantee that the technologies you use will survive.

mez offers jen a golden text][ract][ smile

weishaus says, "I'm counting on a university library to copy and upgrade my archive.""

Deena hands out lifetime guarantees that libraries will archive materials, along with certificates of ownership to the Brooklyn Bridge.

Scott says, "There may also be a move to browserless, self-contained aps."

mez sup][app][licates, again...

Margie says, "I wonder how the men in the Diner feel who can no longer guarantee that these works can be seen at all?"

a.c.chapman says, "I guess the question I tend to ask myself is 'does this piece need to be a computer piece, and if so why and how?' this tends to lead to structural questions and experimentation."

mez rep.lee.kates, 2wards...

lugh says, "It's all input and light; well, maybe sound. The technology is pretty simple. If we avoid proprietary products and hand code, anything at all is possible inside *any* browser released within the last three years."

Deena says, "How do people feel about the value of "dead" inaccessible works? Are they worth resurrecting? What is our history worth?"

Bobbyrabyd sobs, hiccups at his mortality.

mez weaves a small silken book out of the dead, the in.ack.cess][pit][able...

lugh says, "I have a PDP-11 - what's dead or inaccessible?" I'm counting on my DLT drive."

Scott says, "That gets a lot more realistic as a widespread distrib. mechanism if peer-to-peer really takes off."

Deena says, "Scott, what is peer-to-peer?"

Scott says, "Peer-to-peer is the tech behind napster -- its basically a lot of people sharing materials directly from their hard drives with other people on a network."

Cybele says, "How hard is that to set up, Scott?"

Margie says, "Yes, Scott, but there needs to be a platform, right"

lugh says, "Peer to peer is nothing new; ever hear of ftp? uucp (unix to unix copy program)? Apple networking...?"

Cybele says, "No, just a format."

Scott says, "Well, setting up a peer-to-peer network -- probably hard for any of us to do but the technology is available and getting improved."

JimR says, "I have to say I don't think peer-to-peer has anything to do with this. Peer-to-peer only influences the details of who is the client and who is the server. There's no impact as far as *what* is shared. Tell me what I'm missing ..."

Deena says, "Yes, how does the transmission affect the idea that the software may be inaccessible."

Margie says, "Jim R. though, has been continually working to keep his work going on new platforms!"

Cybele says, "Noise"

Deena says, "mEIKAL, what do you mean by noise? elaborate, please..."

Deena says, "WHY do authors chose to use hypertext, new media, technology. What are we saying that can't be said in good old reliable print?"

Scott says, "I think its more how we're saying than what we're saying."

a.c.chapman says, "Well, hopefully, both are important."

jenniferley says, "Jan, I agree, but the situation for hypermedia is very different from say, composing music, or creating paintings or sculpture."

lugh says, "There are works which read differently depending on ones spur of the moment choices, which may never be thoroughly read. You can't do that with a notebook. Can't."

Deena says, "Jan and Jen, how is hypermedia different from other art forms?"

mez notes and sings the re-write, the book of Others, the actual work...

mez peers, a keyholian point, a collab.ore.ative sopace with a view...

Jan says, "Well, I don't think it is all that different, on a general level."

jenniferley can see this could be a long discussion ... would love to have it Jan face to face :)

Bobbyrabyd says, "I'm betting the Electronic Literature Org's prize this year is going to turn up some cool-app developments by the 15 February deadline."

Deena says, "The trAce/ELO chat next February 4, 2001 will talk with Talan Memmott, winner of the New Media Prize, then FraMe authors on February 18, 2001, and then the winner of the ELO prize in May 13, 2001."

Scott says, "The key would indeed be the format."

Stephanie/Janet says, "Isn't the point that there's no shared format?"

Jan says, "Since it's about artistic expression through technology, I mean painters also use technology, a hammer and chisel are also technologies."

jenniferley says, "What strikes me is how, for instance, we don't see the pyramids as they were constructed. but we can SEE them."

lugh says, "Nothing. You are missing nothing. The network topology is not relevant to what for the art takes unless the art is a network diagram."

lugh says, "Form, rather."

Cybele says, "We could all deliver content in a form that is not platform dependent."

mez transmissed the point, the P O V...

jenniferley says, "With the netscape rewrite killing DHTML .. the work vanishes."

mez visions the e][mailed][vent horison, the New vanishing point][allistic urge][

JimR says, "Peer-to-peer has nothing to do with file formats. Any format you could use with peer-to-peer you could use with http or ftp or kermit."

jenniferley says, "How do the men in the Diner feel about this??"

Deena says, "I still want to know why authors are choosing the forms they choose--why are we using the technology, the graphics? what are we able to say we couldn't say in any other way?"

Jan says, "From what I understand, XML, rather than DHTML is the W3C recommendation for the future."

Guy says, "The big idea behind peer to peer is people to people. Decentralize the content to the infrastructure."

Bobbyrabyd shares a URL for the Technology Platforms for 21st Century Literature Conference...<>.

mez plots a red graphian curve.

JimR says, "Jen, I guess I saw that stuff as an oncoming freight train and never wanted anywhere near DHTML."

Guy says, "Oops not."

armele says, "Isn't the concept about what you do, rather than how you do it?"

a.c.chapman says, "I think it is different, in that it's a New kind of temporal work., a New kind of interaction with the audience -- not in a choose your own adventure or rearrange this poem (OuLiPO) sort of way."

jenniferley says, "Yes, you did call that one Jim ... I remember in SUNY :)"

Deena says, "Right, and the next Brown conference will be Digital Arts and Culture in April 2001."

Bobbyrabyd says, "Just a reminder: some of the people here chatted about platform (in person) at a Brown conference (TP21CL) two years ago . . . bookmark the proceedings for later review!"

mez concepts, transcepts, seepage septums...

Deena says, "So we can get temporality in here, and spatiality, and maybe show structures in unique ways..."

Deena says, "The reason I use the New media is to show the innate structure of the work, to explore connections that can't be made on paper."

armele says, "Making text dynamic, rather than static?"

Deena says, "Merging graphics with text."

Margie says, "I think, D.,that many of us use the New coding, like DHTML because the fun of it is saying something in a New way--maybe not a New thing to say, but a way to say it that changes everything. I saw this in the Diner pieces"

Deena says, "How do the men here merge graphics and images with the text? How do the images affect that meaning?"

a.c.chapman says, "Such quiet fellows."

mez spies a bunch of fragmented wooden words in a dusty corner. she crawled ova 2 them her knees skittering ova jags of techne text and codeic crusts...

Scott says, "Right -- wasn't trying to oversimplify, Jim. My overall interest in peer to peer has more to with idea of how people could build a content network that has some mechanism for rewarding artists for the work, and that pulls things to a well-searchable collaborative sub-network. But I can't explain what I'm trying to talk about in a chat window. "

Margie says, "Sometimes the graphics carried most of the content."

Bobbyrabyd says, "Deena: males merge text and graphics nowhere near as coolly as Christy."

Margie says, "Well, Christy is a wonder, but the work in the Diner is sumptuous."

Deena passes out lots of wooden fragments and illuminates them in cyberlight.

jenniferley says, "DHTML allows different synaptic connections between parts of a whole ... or it did for me."

jenniferley says, "So I'll be sad to see it go ... have to learn a New bag of tricks"

a.c.chapman nods to jennifer

JimR says, "Oh sure, if you're talking about the relationship to audience, remuneration, etc., peer to peer is important there. But I don't see if affecting what gets written."

Deena says, "We can also take these conversations to the ELO bulletin board for more thought out answers... I will post the questions there at"

Cybele says, "So, Jim how do we transform browser & system incompatibilities?"

mez says, "Scott I think yr getting at the crux of the matter here. with an urge 2 both create a network that supports and references, great stuff"

Deena says, "Jennifer, you may be able to substitute the connection system for some of that DHTML connections"

lugh says, "Look at your Kanjis, Deena- it's just different to paper. Some things are a waste of technology, or rather the medium is not relevant to the content, but interactive text requires an interactive medium. There, Deena - your work is not a waste of magnetic zones, Deena." Deena says, "Thanks, Russ. " lugh says, "Narf."

Deena says, "I was very impressed --blown away--with the graphics in these works. There was some incredible works there..."

JimR says, "Java has all the muscle one needs, but has too high a load on non-programmers to "Use native". The trick is front ends that generate the Java. I've been using one, called Jamba -- just found out about another one yesterday called CrossArtist -- it's free!"

mez looks 2 a red blooded Sun ][system][, javaesqued and light in scope and ochre tones...

Cybele says, "Anything that works on a mac Jim?"

Deena says, "Please give us the URL for CrossArtist, Jim"

JimR says, " I think ..."

a.c.chapman says, "Jamba--that's interesting, do you like it?"

Scott says, "Also, I think the browser-independent stuff gets more realistic the more people get broadband. One of the cool things about .tk3 -- although it has a lot limitations and is a proprietary format -- things created for it won't be drastically altered every time Netscape decides to tweak its browser."

Deena passes out sun systems and lots of aspirin for us nonprogrammers.

Cybele says, "Not to mention that Java is really sluggish on my machine & crashed it often."

armele says, "Can you tell me about .tk3?"

jenniferley says, "I'm curious ... we decided to make the Diner English-language specific ... so who did we leave out because of that?"

Deena passes out superfast more than state of the art computers to all writers and readers

JimR says, "I like Jamba a lot. Interleaf bought it, strangled it, now it's been sold again, and I don't know if the New owners will make a go of it or not."

lugh says, "JimR? I'm a developer and I see Java break way too often to trust it on any machine over which I do not exercise control, such as the machine of another viewing my work over the 'net."

mez filtahs her broadband, playin a narrow tune...

Bobbyrabyd says, "Nonsequitor: please raise your hand if you're coming to DAC at Brown in April"

a.c.chapman raises hand.

Stephanie/Janet says, "I hope to be there, Bobby"

Deena raises hand and adds "We are doing a two day writers workshop (Ala CyberMountain) at the Digital Arts and Culture conference in April in Brown University, RI. See the Electronic Writers Workshops schedules."

Margie says, "The other thing to put on your calendar is the ELO Symposium in September!"

a.c.chapman smells pits.

Deena says, "Please email me at for info"

mez plants her hands in a jumble of the virtual

lugh says, "Probably a lot of people. Basque rhymes don't work in English, f'rinstance."

weishaus says, "Sorry, I had to go away and get something to eat. I was starving in the Diner!""

jenniferley says, "And the E Poetry 2001 Festival at SUNY Buffalo"

Bobbyrabyd says, "ELO symposium at New School in NYC . . .""

jenniferley says, "So many conferences, so little time :("

Jan says, "I think that in electronic media, authors must come to the understanding that a work (text or otherwise) cannot just be published once and then live forever, works need to be maintained and updated for New media types and formats much like software programs."

mez confers, her body light and silicon bright...

Scott says, ". . . . begin momentary plug --- REMEMBER THE ELO AWARDS --- ten grand in both fiction and poetry -- 25 days left -- BIG SHOW IN NEW YORK MAY 18th -- meet the media, get famous. And such. ENTER TODAY."

Scott shares a URL...<>.

Scott says, "-- end plug"

Margie says, "Jan, you are surely right. it is a cottage industry just keeping one's home page up to snuff, tho!"

mez says, "Hmmm"

jenniferley says, "I think you're right Jan ... and realizing that is an issue is a mind shift for writers of text, or painters or anyone who expected their work to endure"

mez says, "Love the snuff word:)"

armele says, "So we come back to archiving work..."

Deena says, "And snuffing work."

lugh says, "As differentiated from hardware programs?"

mez says, "Lol"

Deena passes around little ivory snuffboxes that actually work.

armele snuffs.

Margie says, "What does up to snuff mean, mez/ do you think? good enuff to sniff?"

lugh says, "That depends. I make kinetic sculptures. They last, and do not require updating."

mez gently passes her rewurked ire, her ivory, her ink n papered snuff in2.

Deena says, "The aural/visual/ aspects of the works have blended so much, we should probably add in scent as well."

jenniferley says, "Archiving is certainly a major issue with New media work, and it's not an easy one."

armele says, "We'll be able to do that soon.."

Cybele says, "How long til they rust?"

Stephanie/Janet says, "Thanks to all--goodbye now!"

JimR says, "The preservation issue is a large one -- much too large for chat. One thing very interesting about Jamba is that it generates a text file that is used as the program for its player. This text file is quite readable and *SPECIFIES* the piece completely. So the "Jamba text file" acts as a kind of preservation language."

Scott says, "They got those smell printers now. I want to play with one of them."

Margie says, "Ha, Scott, be careful!"

jenniferley says, "Watch out ... Scott is doing smells !!"

a.c.chapman says, "Ewww. I don't want scents."

Deena passes around scents and some nonscents too

Margie says, "I would like a gardenia poem."

Deena says, "Gardenias would be good. Roses would be good. I heard about a company transferring scents through the web..."

Deena says, "We are over time: any great thoughts we need to get in here?"

armele says, "Maybe each work needs a cut off point?"

mez says, "Heh Margie, possibly..I love the connotations of it, like a snuffing, a good ro][u][ot round in gritty places, a hard look at aspects of work we usually ignore..."

lugh says, "As systems become more powerful, they are frequently used to emulate older/less capable systems. Our works will run fine in emulators, y'know?"

JimR says, "We've been so fixed on *presentations* that we haven't investigated preservation languages. I think this is an important subject."

armele says, "Only that would negate the medium which it's made in"

jenniferley says, "Absolutely Jim"

Deena says, "We have done some chats on preservation issues, but have not reached conclusions. It seems to be like the Impermanence Agent, building in obsolescence for temporary works or moaning about keeping updated!"

JimR says, "Emulators are OK as a "safety net", but somehow blind reliance on emulators makes me nervous."

a.c.chapman says, "I recently made a documentation version of The Agent, and in a year or two, I think I'm going to be very happy I did."

lugh says, "How so? It's light, sound and input. These are the media, unless the desk is a part of the presentation ala Electronic Easel..."
Editor's note: Electronic Easel was an exhibition at the University of Colorado, Boulder. We lost the chat archive from Electronic Easel participants on June 28, 2000, but have some pictures...and assurances that a good time was held by all.

armele says, "Being able to send something out so that it would evolve without my constant intervention, would be a dream"

Margie says, "Jim, you are so right about preservation--but we need institutions to help with this, me saving my old Win3 won't hack it"

Deena says, "Jim, blind reliance on electricity is making me nervous!"

jenniferley says, "Aha a smart hyper'text' ... updates itself as needed"

mez pre.serves. presevers...

JimR says, "How about preserving some of the important research hypertext systems that none of us have had our hands on even for 5 minutes???"

Deena says, "Yes, even my collection of old macs isn't really enough "

jenniferley says, "Time for me to run too ... it has been such a pleasure to type with you all."

armele says, "Evolves rather than updates."

lugh says, "I mean a '386 emulator once all computers are made from protein or some such. The same browser software, et cetera."

weishaus says, "Even with print there are problems with translations, even editions of books. There are always typos, and the text over editions can change.""

jenniferley says, "Many thanks to Deena for hosting"

mez says, "Cya jen:)"

Guy says, "Good night"

armele says, "I second the thanks"

Margie says, "I am off before I get caught by the rolling blackouts. Deena, thanks so much for hosting this discussion of Diner--and more--"

Deena says, "Thanks for coming all of you writers, readers, collators, and thinkers"

mez thirds it

Cybele says, "I gotta go too, thanks all for so New ideas..."

jenniferley says, "And all those amazing guys and their work, and Margie, and Steph .... and ..... Jan for the MOO .......night all"

weishaus says, "Yes, thanks.""

lugh says, "Thanks and you are welcome to all!"

A puff of white smoke engulfs Jan as he vanishes into thin air

Deena hands round thanks to all for their hard work. This will be archived at

mez watches the nodes remote, disconnected, whispering in2 a n ether...

The housekeeper arrives to remove most guests.

Deena says, "Who is left? WeE can keep going, but we could keep going forever on these topics..."

lugh says, "I'm here"

armele says, "Me too"

lugh says, "I'll stay if others do"

a.c.chapman says, "Aloha"

Deena says, "a.c. are you in Hawaii?"

mez b-comes hazy, silken and webbish.............mez says, "Poof!" and disconnects.

a.c.chapman says, "No, just from there."

JimR says, "I'm still here but it looks like things are winding down"

Deena says, "Yes, Jim, thanks for coming and sharing your insights. It is really hard to do this in a chat, but I like airing the issues a bit :)"

armele says, "Okay...hey Deena, I'm in the standalone MOOTcam, how do I quit?"

Deena says, "Type @quit"

lugh says, "Thanks Jim - pleasure tweakin you and my brain both."

armele says, "Okay, cool, I'll be here next week...had a great time."

JimR says, "A pleasure folks, I think I'll bail ..."

Deena says, "See you in the trAce webboard next week."

lugh says, "Cheers"

Deena says, "Cheers. thanks Jim"

Deena says, "a.c. Tell Noah Hi and congrats on the Impermanence Agent and being in the Iowa Review next month--sorry we forgot to mention it"

whatever quietly enters.

Deena says, "Hi whatever, we are winding down"

Deena hands round glasses of winding down wine to all who are left

a.c.chapman says, "Oh, thanks. yeah, we're pretty psyched about that."

lugh says, "Whatever's a great handle."

Deena is mad at herself for not thinking to promote it again..

The housekeeper arrives to remove whatever.

lugh says, "Motors whine when they wind down..."

a.c.chapman says, "You shouldn't be mad. that's our job not yours."

Deena says, "Right. Next time come up and promote it :)"

The housekeeper arrives to cart disconnected guests off to bed.

lugh says, "Crazy, yes; mad, no."

a.c.chapman says, ";)"

Deena says, "I should get out of here, though, folks. Kinkos costs..."

Deena says, "It was great to see you guys, and I hope to see you again at these chats..."

a.c.chapman says, "Cool. well, I guess I'll get back to work too. must finish before Simpson's. Thank you again."

lugh says, "Cheers, all - I'm off to work."

-- End log: Monday, January 22, 2001 9:33:37 am CST


Related Links: