Chat Transcript: February 13, 2000
Chat with Talan Memmott

Related Links

-- Log Started: Sunday, February 13, 2000 10:07:00 am CST --

ssteph exclaims, "Hi to all!"

Cynthia says, "hi"

ssteph asks, "Cynthia, is Talan coming?"

Deena says, "Hi ssteph"

Deena says, "yes, he should be"

Cynthia asks, "who is Talan?"

Deena says, "In an hour"

ssteph says, "Hi Deena"

Deena says, "Our honored guest"

Cynthia says, "ah"

Cynthia says, "sorry"

leaves for the Jan's Office.

Deena says, "Ssteph, let's go to eliterature"

ssteph asks, "Deena, your note said 11am eastern, is it really going to be noon?"

ssteph says, "Deena, I thought this room was formatted for panel, can I just talk?"

Deena says, "Sure. You are Stephanie Strickland, right?"

ssteph says, "Right. But I'm wondering about the time, your note said 11 am eastern"

cleo quietly enters.

cleo arrives.

Deena says, "Hi Cleo"

Deena says, "I may have messed up the timeas again. Let me look at my notes..."

reiner quietly enters.

reiner arrives.

Deena says, "hi all"

cleo says, "hello reiner"

Deena says, "Stephanie, I said noon eastern, 5 pm gmt. What time is it in the east now?"

Deena says, "Hi reiner, great that you could come!"

ssteph says, "Deena, no, your emails all say 11 am eastern, unfortunately I can't be here at noon. Please tell Talan I'm sorry to miss him."

cleo says, "hello - do I have to type a quote to speak?"

reiner says, "have to figur out how this sPlace works"

Deena says, "Cleo, yes, you need to start with a qupote and then type"

cleo says, "they say noon Eastern"

reiner says, "am i too early - seems ......"

Deena says, "I have a note on how to MOO at the right "

cleo says, "ah, thanks!"

reiner says, "does it work ?"

Deena says, "Hi all, yes, I had set this for 5 pm GMT, which I thought was noon easter, 11 central, but where are you from and what time is it there?"

cleo says, "I'm on the East coast in PA and its 11:13"

Deena says, "Stephanie, on Wed Feb 23, we will talk with Marjorie Leusebrink about the Prgressive Dinner Party, which airs on Riding the Meridian this Tuesday"

reiner says, "europe-germany-17:30-5.30pm"

cleo says, "Ah! I'm in that"

Deena says, "Reiner, so is Germany one hour off of GMT?"

reiner says, "right - that is MEZ"

Deena furiously writes notes

reiner says, "hmmmm - i have to cook now - will return later"

cleo says, "actually, I'm Claire Dinsmore"

Deena says, "Yes, we will be starting at noon, eastern, or in a half hour.

Enjoy your meal, reiner :)"

Deena says, "Hi Claire"

reiner says, "uptolater ..... :) su"

cleo says, "hello"

Deena says, "Do you know Reiner in real life?"

cleo says, "this is hard for someone left handed!"

Deena says, "What are your interests in hypertext?"

reiner has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove reiner.

Deena says, "Ahh yes. If you go on the telnet site, it might be easier."

cleo says, "yes indeed - we chat on the webartery list and he's in my mag. Cauldron & net"

Deena CONNECTIONS ring out loud and clear

cleo says, "wait, is cyberspace real life?"

Deena says, "Hi Claire of Cauldron & net--what is the URL for Caludron, I was looking for that last night"

Deena says, "Ouch, no I'm not sure it is."

cleo says, "just a moment ..."

Deena says, "the telnet is lingua.ut"

Deena says, "the telnet is 8888"

cleo says, ""

cleo says, "Deena - please send me something for the next issue!"

Deena says, "Actually, I wanted to submit something to you, just a sec"

Deena says, "Would you be interested in Power moves "

cleo says, "send it to"

Deena says, "It is up temporarily at"

cleo says, "i'll bookmark it - oh, i would be so proud to have your work in it!"

Deena says, "Well, I'd be proud to be in Cauldron--Marjorie was sowing it to me and then I couldn't find the URL later!"

cleo says, "btw, i'm slow as i type with one hand"

Deena says, "No worries. I type fast but messily."

Deena says, "Stephanie, we will have an archive of our chat with Talan. "

Deena says, "Was there anything in particular you wanted to ask him?"

cleo says, "she has me in Dinner party and I've just finished a hypertext for Meridian"

ssteph says, "Oh good Deena, I was hoping so. No, I just wanted to hear what he had to say. Also want to say how much I enjoy Cauldron. "

Deena says, "Yes. Have you heard about CyberMountain in Denvber in August?"

Deena says, "Yes, we are going to archive all the chats"

cleo says, "thanks.who are you?"

ssteph says, "I am Stephanie Strickland"

cleo says, "oh - I've just heard your name, where can I see your work"

cleo says, "yes, it sounds very interesting"

ssteph says, "I have a piece at and one in the current Riding the Meridian which I did with Margie Luesebrink and I have an Eastgate Storyspace longpoem True North"

Deena says, "Stephanie's work is truly unique"

cleo says, "I'm sorry, I have seen/read that - it's wondrous!"

Deena says, "Stephanie, where is As Stone is? Is that the Meridian piece?"

ssteph says, "oops sorry, that is with an s, Rob Kendall's site where Deena is an editor, and yes Stone Is at Meridian"

Deena says, "Her poetry and themes are intricately interwoven"

ssteph says, "As are Deena's!!!"

cleo says, "I'm in the meridian too - it seems I'll be in excellent company"

Deena says, "The Meridian is great. We will fatuer the progressive Dinner party next time (Wed the 23rd, so if you can make it, please do."

Deena says, "That is a bad GMT time--it is 7 pm Mountain, 6 pm Pacific"

cleo says, "indeed! I enjoyed the ballad greatly, and enjoyed my ferris wheels immensely!"

TalanM quietly enters.

TalanM arrives.

ssteph says, "Deena, so sorry, but if it is noon eastern again on 2/23 I'll be at NJIT demoing True North and Sandsoot and StoneIs"

Deena says, "Claire, if you have anything, please send it to Iowa Review"

Deena says, "Hi Talan!"

TalanM says, "morning"

Deena says, "Welcome aboard!"

cleo says, "I have a piece in dinner party so I wouldn't miss it - margie's going to be in the next Cauldron too"

TalanM says, "hey, no tech probs today"

Deena says, "We have a few early risers here, but Stepahie will hve to go before we really start"

Deena says, "Hooray! I ironed out some of the wrinkles with Cynthia, the administrator this morning, too."

Deena says, "Did anyone have trouble getting on?"

Deena says, "Talan, are you at work on the fast machine?"

ssteph says, "It took me a few tries, it didn't accept my name but did accept guest"

TalanM says, "actually, at home on a NEW machine"

Deena says, "Ohhh ahhhh. New machines are god"

cleo says, "hello TalanM, how are you?"

TalanM says, "I have to pop off a couple of emails so I may be intermittent for a couple of minutes"

Deena says, "Stephanie, I think you may have to log in as guest anyway, and then change the name."

TalanM says, "hi claire... drinking coffee!"

ssteph says, "Talan, I'm afraid I have to say hello and goodbye, but I'll be checking back at the archive."

cleo says, "moi aussi. did you get the artaud mail I sent you?"

ssteph says, "Goodbye all"

TalanM says, "that's ok Steph... "

Deena says, "Talan, your work and Stephanies sand and soot bear a striking resemblance inthe dependance on graphics to convey the heart of the meaning"

cleo says, "goodbye ssteph, send me something!"

TalanM says, "I see it here but haven't cracked it open yet."

ssteph has disconnected.

Deena says, "We haven't really started yet, so now is a good time to check email"

cleo says, "I have to excuse myself a moment,"

cleo says, "Deena, may I have your Email?"

Deena says, "Sure Claire--it is"

smylie quietly enters.

smylie arrives.

cleo says, "Thanks Deena - I'm so glad to finally meet you."

cleo says, "Hello barry"

smylie says, "hello"

Deena says, "Hi barry"

smylie says, "i am not familiar with this software but it looks simple enough"

Deena says, "Clarie, I sent your email, so we should keep in touch :)"

Deena says, "Barry, if you click on the "click hre to find out how to moo, there are some basic instructions"

TalanM says, "i'm back...."

cleo says, "I'm behind a Firewall and DSL but couldn't connect with it, so I used my dial up - glad I still have one"

cleo says, "WB sir"

Cybele quietly enters.

Cybele arrives.

Deena says, "HI Cybele"

Cybele says, "hi all"

cleo says, "hello mIEKAL - everyone's here Talan!"

Deena says, "Let's get the show on the road!"

cleo says, "aren't you proud?"

Cybele says, "how is the moo running today, anyone get kicked out yet?"

Deena says, "Talan, your work really is intriguing, and I wanted to hear more about synames.."

Deena says, "so far, so good Miekal. We can but hope in luck"

TalanM says, "I'm using that particular term as a way of explaining the way image and words are merging, or the difference is eroding"

cleo says, "Deena, it's only 11:45 on the East Coast if you want to wait -"

Deena says, "We can get started, if folks don;t mind some repeats. There is so much to cover..."

It pages, "thanks for the buzz in my brain and the invitation - but I am just hanging out here.."

TalanM says, "the neology there is faulty... but the ama - is from 'amal'but I like the pun synama'"

smylie leaves for Talan Memmott links

smylie arrives from Talan Memmott links

Deena says, "Marjorie Leusebrink, who is flying right now, explained the mergng/erosion like the tectonic shifts, wherer the plates of words and art are butting up against each other and creating new uplifts..."

TalanM says, "there is a reduction/expansion of general 'text in this regard"

Deena says, "Talan, can you go into the etymology of 'amal a bit"

TalanM says, "amal-gam.... I am essentially giving the merge an alchemist or metalurgic twist"

TalanM says, "I agree with Marjorie's tectonic view... but the faults slip all the time"

JeffStrand quietly enters.

JeffStrand arrives.

Helen quietly enters.

Helen arrives, like a train from Platform 9 and three-quarters

Deena says, "Hi Helen and Jeff"

smylie says, "i think video and i think cinema but maybe interactive"

Deena says, "We are discussing the merging and amalgamation of text and imagery"

JeffStrand says, "Hi Deena.""

Helen says, "Good evening/afternoon"

cleo says, "welcome"

Deena says, "Can we really distinguish any more between the word and the image?"

TalanM says, "i have a rather wide view of what text is... "

smylie says, "written words are images"

Deena says, "Good morning too"

elin quietly enters.

elin carefully sneaks into your room...

Deena says, "Hi elin"

elin says, "hi Deena!"

elin says, "hi everybody:)"

TalanM says, "more than words...."

Deena says, "@more"

smylie says, "images that represent sounds"

reiner quietly enters.

reiner arrives.

TalanM says, "there is the post-structural adage -- the world is text"

TalanM says, "i work from that premise... "

Cybele says, "my feeling is that the reason why words & images are merging tothe degree that they are is that we are pushing toward an international icon speech...."

smylie says, "or god is the word?"

reiner says, "hello again ..."

Deena says, "an international icon speech, miekal?"

cleo says, "logos"

cleo says, "Wb"

Deena says, "But do logos and icons carry the same kinds of meanings as images and texgt?"

reiner says, ".... surely not"

Cybele says, "no, but we have to begin somewhere"

smylie says, "they are purely visual without sound representation"

cleo says, "i mean logos as from the latin"

Cybele says, "the zaumist are my favorite example.."

smylie says, "an icon of an elevator at the airport looks something like an elevator"

Helen says, "What is the difference between image - logo - icon?"

Deena says, "And how does sound and other senses fit in here?"

TalanM says, "the are in transition as each other, always..."

Deena says, "Is it that we now have more room to play that the tranistions are becoming apparent in themselves?"

TalanM says, "there are no STATIC signs... as in signifiers."

TalanM says, "particularly in hypermedia"

TalanM says, "they participate on multiple strata simultaneously"

Deena says, "Talan, what do you mean by Static? Static as in what stays on the page or as in what meanings stay?"

smylie says, "there are hard signs like a red octigon means "stop""

TalanM says, "meanings, form change.... the stop sign is not static in its meaning, or concrete...."

smylie says, "yes there is context always"

cleo says, "it's not?"

Deena says, "smylie, does a red octagon ALWAYS mean stop? there are other contexts..what a bout a red merry go round shaped like an octagon?"

Cybele says, "doesn't a rothko painting communicate internationally, not in a connotative way, but in a subjective emotive way?"

smylie says, "what about a word shaped as "sky" does it always mean sky?"

Deena says, "yes, but is it communicating tthe same thing to all people?"

TalanM says, "very subject narratives are formed through a Rothko"

cleo says, "indeed , was just talking about that yesterday ..."

reiner says, "-rothko - some will only see colour ---"

TalanM says, "some will be transported"

Cybele says, "does communication mean that everyone understands the same thing?"

Helen says, "anybody know a rothko url for those of us who don't know this artist?"

Cybele says, "if so then literature is not communication..."

smylie says, "everybody had their own understanding"

reiner says, "rothko is NOT for the net :) jpegs"

Helen says, "there are endless opportunities for misunderstanding: and unlikely moments of connection"

cleo says, ""

Deena says, "Reiner, can we get a real world reference for rothko? a book a museum?"

Cybele says, "helen, he was an abstract expressionist who ainted enormous fields of color.."

Helen says, "Many thanks"

reiner says, "there are some in Koeln :)"

smylie says, "in a state of tollerence there is not so much misunderstanding as "realization" of many points of view"

reiner says, "rothko chapell?"

Deena says, "What if the artist wants to communicate something very specfici that will cut across all points of view?"

Helen says, "except that sometimes people do NOT realise they ar talking about different things, or are so offended that they do not stop to find out..."

smylie says, "rothko existed in an iconic era that had no syntax"

Cybele says, "in an international way? deena"

reiner says, "language - at first i think - there should be a 'direct' understandable meaning"

TalanM says, "intent is fluid"

cleo says, "but a picture of a rothko is nothing like the real thing - the size, depth layers of colour which envelope one in a whole atmosphere ..."

Deena says, "Talan, will the synamals provide or specifric meanings?"

Deena says, "Yes, Helen, we tend to think that of course, everyone will see it *our* way..."

TalanM says, "with the Lexia to Perplexia piece it will be about abstraction"

TalanM says, "true Metagoria -- signs taken to their semiotic limit"

Deena says, "Talan, can you explain Metagoria?"

smylie says, "is that english or another code?"

cleo says, "but can we ever really define 'limit?""

Helen is grateful to Cleo for a glimpse of what Rothko is about, and sees her point

Deena says, "I really like the Lexia to Perplexia is exacty what we are talking about--how do you unocver the meaning and then communicate that meaning to others"

smylie says, "only if you define what it is you want to know the limits of"

reiner says, "do we need to define 'limit'"

TalanM says, "meta/goria // a measuring of potential vocalities of a sign... through time, at the moment, through outrageous contextual extension"

TalanM says, "limit is a convenience"

Deena says, "is it limit we are talking bout here, or the shape of the meaning?"

smylie says, "limitation is a necessity"

cleo says, ":)"

Cybele says, "talan can you give an example or metagoria?"

TalanM says, "the thread produced by the extension is the metagoric value of the sign"

smylie says, "whaa?"

Helen smiles.

TalanM says, "there is some of the metagoric method in LUX -- the piece i will have in frAme next week"

Deena says, "So the metagoria embodies all the interpretations of the sign?"

Cybele says, "how is that possible?"

Deena says, "Talan, will you have that on your home page?"

TalanM says, "or is a collection of privileged fragments from that thread"

Helen says, "Ah, I've seen LUX -- how does it embody metagoria?"

cleo Talan said "signs to their semilogical limit"

Deena says, "You can get to Talan's work by clicking on the Talan Memmott links at the side of the screen"

Deena says, "What is semi-logical limit?"

smylie says, "i think poetry and visuals at best are not too specific and allow for each "reader" their interpretation"

Cybele says, "or sound for that matter."

smylie says, "sound is interesting - it is so pure"

Helen says, "A right-pointing arrow on a web page: soen't that always mean continuation of some kind?"

TalanM says, "lux -- in the last section / there is much history layered over itself... Greek Olympian identities are manipulated... there are anachronisms..."

elin leaves for Talan Memmott links

cleo says, "sorry: semiological"

Cybele says, "unless you are hebrew or ethiopian helen"

smylie says, "yes right arrow - go on - left arrow go back"

Helen [to Cybele]: in which case it meeans?

Deena says, "yes, even the direction of the word order differs internationally"

Cybele says, "right to left"

Helen says, "I see"

smylie says, "good point"

Deena says, "How do you embody these ideals of semiological limits in your work, Talan?"

TalanM says, "wacky extended research"

reiner says, "i like semi-logical :) / intuitive ? / semi-emotive ?"

elin arrives from Talan Memmott links

Cybele says, "my favorite are boustrephedonic languages that"

Deena says, "Can you explain boustrephedonic?"

Cybele says, "read right to left the first line, then left to right the next, etc"

Helen says, "Cane we EVER put over the same meaning to different people, then, even with text AND image AND sound etc.? or will there always be someone who does not understand?"

TalanM says, "i work toward roots // detoured etymology // tangetial historical references... then in the construction, fabrication of these flimsy identities..."

Cybele says, "why is the same meaning important?"

elin [to Helen]: why is it so important to create only one meaning?

smylie says, "it is more about the poetics of how everything works together - not the meaning of it"

Helen [to elin]: I'm not sure it is...

smylie says, "like in music"

cleo says, "the reader/viewer will always be the author to some extent I think"

smylie says, "right and even more when they are becoming the "user" who has choice"

TalanM says, "choice -- within a closed system"

smylie says, "or should i write "we" have choices"

Deena says, "So, Talan, you are using allusion and references to create the meaning?"

cleo says, "e.g., the web as a closed system?"

TalanM says, "yes -- to both construct and deconstruct"

Helen says, " e.g. a particular work as a closed system?"

reiner says, "the reader as a closed system"

smylie says, "perhaps a closed system but in multi authorial environments it becomes more open"

TalanM says, "work"

Deena says, "I like the idea of a closed system and a series of choices. It seems to me that that is what hypertext does--presents a world for the reader/viewer to explore"

TalanM says, "still closed as an application, Barry"

Helen nods at you.

smylie says, "and closed like a book"

Helen says, "I have this argument a lot. some think hypertext should be endlessly open"

smylie says, "or open like a book"

Deena says, "Yes, Talan, could you address how ollaborative workspaces affect the semiologiccal limits and the choices that readers can make--in exploration and in meaning"

reiner says, "creating closed systems does not lead to a limited reception"

smylie says, "right!"

Deena says, "Helen, I dont think there is a real open hypertext--unless it is something like Hypetext hotel where anyone can enter aything at all."

smylie right

Deena says, "Good point reiner!"

TalanM says, "there is an instant erosion of concrete meaning in collaborative work... which is not a negative but rather an opening and unfolding of potential"

elin [to Deena]: I agree

Deena says, "Why is there an instant erosion of concrete meaning?"

smylie says, "muliple users can be online at one time "

reiner says, "i think a not closed system will be not of interest for any reader"

cleo says, "can you expand R?"

smylie says, "part of the importance of the internet is allowing "users" to laterally communicate inside an art work"

TalanM says, "cross contamination of intentionality... I am not saying this is a negative things, as consensus usually prevails or the work is made more espressive, more active by this process"

reiner says, "--- we want a kind of control --- "

Helen [to Deena]: that's exactly the kind of thing i mean, like Dark lethe. I like to limit my readers' choices!

Deena says, "Yes. Helen, please provide the URL for Dark Lethe"

Helen says, "but Leoniwe Winson will be arguing for open hypertext at the trAce Incubation conference"

reiner says, "an totally open system will be(come) - seen as irrelevant"

Helen says, " is Dark lethe"

Deena says, "In a single author work, it is much easier to guide the reader and to shape intentions and expectations. But in a multi author work, you are right Talan, the intentions multiply and overcross"

smylie says, "it is hard to branch a story because as author you know that part of it will never be seen/read by each individual"

elin [to reiner]: maybe - but irrelevant as WHAT ...

Deena says, "Reiner, why do you think that totally open systems will be irrelevant? What purposes do totally open systems serve?"

Helen [to smylie]: true

Deena says, "I have heard it argued thatthe web itself is a totally open system...."

TalanM says, "so you may end-up with something that contradicts itself--this is positive from the (per)[p]lexia point of view"

Deena says, "Talan, what other characteristics have you seen in collaborative work?"

TalanM says, "collaboration also has the potential to expose the contributors..."

reiner says, "a ditionary in some kind is an open (sorted) collection / system"

reiner says, "you can pick every word and ....."

Deena says, "Talan, how does it expose the contributors?"

Cybele says, "I think Alan S's YOURS project is open=ended...& quite interesting."

reiner says, "----- sorry have to leave for a while .... ciao"

TalanM says, "expose the collective meta-author... by contrast of the contributions / depending upon the way the work is organized amongst its creators"

reiner has disconnected.

Deena says, "reiner, and you can have new stuff like the Dictionary of the Kazars"

smylie says, "the stream of conscious eddies in multi author games - the production becomes like a game in itself"

Cybele says, "khazars"

Deena says, "Thanks Miekal... I try to type to fast"

Deena says, "And still can't keep up :)"

Deena says, "Talan, What kind of conventions (iconography, tacit

understandings) do you see"

TalanM says, "you can take Marjorie's tectonic model and apply that internally to the collaborators"

Deena says, "So the collaborators intentions push up from underneath and create new mountains of meaning?"

TalanM says, "i think in general we are approaching something in TEXT that has been discussed by the likes of Derrida for 30 years... hypermedia is a great model"

cleo says, " go on ..."

Deena says, "Where we can get a conflation of interpretations, contexts, and intentions?"

TalanM says, "a great model to demonstrate how meaning is never singular, operates on multiple strata, is a minefield of mis-meaning and perhaps no-ledge"

Helen nods.

smylie says, "i prefer working in a group because of the layering and the depth and the simple fun of being part of a group"

RobS quietly enters.

RobS arrives.

Deena says, "So electronic literature is embodying the textual criticism theories?"

Helen [to smylie]: there are advantages in both approaches!

cleo says, "welcome rob"

TalanM says, "how language is always already fragments "

Deena says, "Hi Rob, we are talking about ways that the collaborating works differ from single author works"

cleo says, "brb"

Deena says, "How have you set up collaboragting groups, smylie and Talan?"

Deena passes around cokes and cheeses and coffees and chocolates for all

smylie says, "i dont' set them up they just happen"

Deena says, "do you work mostly with people you know offline or onlin"

smylie says, "online mostly "

RobS says, "hello. I can stay a bit, but this is unfamiliar..."

elin has a sip of coke

TalanM says, "can't speak for Barry... But I keep it loose... I am usually measured in my selections"

Deena says, "What kind of collaborations would you like to see?"

Deena says, "Rob, click on click here to find out how to MOO for instructions on MOng"

TalanM says, "i am considering a larger language building collab."

Helen says, "At trAce we set up lots of collborations: small numbers and large numbers"

Deena says, "How many of you have worked in collaborative settings?"

smylie says, "i don't know myself - i just want to do it"

Deena says, "Helen, how do you set those upp?"

Deena says, "Helen, please give the URL for TrrAce"

Cybele says, "I only do collaborations--"

Deena says, "Why?"

Helen says, "sometimes by invitation, sometimes by open announcement, sometimes informally via chats like these or even offline meetings"

Cybele says, "because I feel like Im repeating myself otherwise."

Deena says, "do collaborations usually have parameters and 'rules' or is it more free flowing?"

TalanM says, " i repeat myself all the time :)"

Helen says, "trAce is at Look at Projects for the best collaborations"

Helen [to Deena]: it depends on the collaboration

Deena says, "I think we repeat the idea until we are satisfied we understand it"

Helen says, "simple rules are best, like the noon quilt"

Deena says, "Helen, I interrupted you. Depends on what?"

Cybele says, "in particular I like to collaborate with folks who have oppostie styles & aesthetics"

TalanM says, "or in the metagorical sense you run out of steam"

Deena says, "Talan, how do your collaborations run?"

Helen says, "For that we just said Look out of your window at noon and write 100 words on what you see, and there was no feedback on that one -- on other projects there is intensive emailing / web posting"

Deena says, "Sort of like a day in the life of Ireland book?"

Helen says, "I set up collaborations between children as well"

Helen [to Deena]: where's that?

TalanM says, "depends... with Mapping the Acephale [in BeeHive 01:01] I had everything mapped out... with the collab with mez, she gave me the text and let me run with it"

smylie says, "i like no rules shared password free for alls "

Deena says, "Day in the Life of COUNTRY are a series of coffee table books.

Photographers will go over the country for one day, and then they edit the photos"

elin [to Helen]: I think that one was successful because the topic unified all the entries - it works like a framework.

Deena says, "sometimes those can backfire. I remember doing a reading of hypertext hotel and showing a grahic rape of a 10 year old in the background."

smylie says, "backfire?"

Helen [to elin]: yes, it worked very well and will work again

Deena says, "I think you need a topic and outlines--or maybe if not, you get a true open hypertext--with all the implications in there"

Deena says, "Backfire, as in doing something so out of line that the project gets shut down"

Deena says, "Talan, what kind of conventions (iconography, tacit understandings) do you see developing in electronic mediums that are distinct from other, traditional mediums? Can you give us some examples?"

Deena says, "Can you see conventions developing from collaborative works?"

TalanM says, "i'm not really sure.... i mean, I think the interface itself sets up some rather harsh conventions... The screen, the keyboard and mouse"

elin says, "does anybody know of any good books on the use of images /text /sound together?"

TalanM says, "in the work though I see just so many voices out there..."

smylie says, "why do you write "harsh"?"

Deena says, "not to mention browser wars, rapidly changing technology, etc. all of which make conventions difficult"

TalanM says, "the technology is fluid // the screen is cold and flat... "

smylie says, "you know you're in the avaunt when there are few conventions"

Cybele says, "one convention that is pretty obvious to me in my collaborations is the valuation of process over product"

Deena says, "Elin, I have not seen many, but there are getting to be some good books on web design--I think that the corporate world is developing many conventions"

Deena says, "Miekal, what do you mean? How do you see the process as valued over product?"

elin [to Deena]: I was hoping for some content theory - not many web design books are good for this :)

Deena says, "Or is it that the process to get the product is so much more complex?"

TalanM says, "In that regards... look at the PERCEPTICON portfolio... those are conventions... "

Deena says, "Elin, I have not seen many good content theory books--yet. Can you write one for your thesis"

elin says, "yes!"

TalanM says, "corporate client sites are interesting in contrast to the creative"

Deena hands Elin a stack of invisible books for references

urk quietly enters.

urk arrives.

smylie says, "why write a book about web design? for money?"

elin thanks Deena and blinks ;^)

Deena says, "Hello URK."

Cybele says, "I see the really interesting collaborations as being more about the pocesses that bring folks together than the commodity produced."

Deena says, "Talan, can you give us the URL for Percepticoin?"

Cybele says, "elin, any of the books about visual poetry are a good start"

smylie says, "yes right - like jammin in the garage!"

TalanM says, " --- this is the company i work for"

Cybele says, "anything by johanna drucker, the new mccaffery rasula book"

Deena says, "Smylie, yes, we really do need to look at the ccorporate web design ideas, as that is where the money is... but many be we can influence them to consider the ideas we get here in the e lit world4"

elin [to Cybele]: thanks - I have been looking at some already:)

TalanM says, "that is what I do at Percepticon... I influence corporate designs a bit..."

Deena says, "Meikal, yes, the fun is in working with the people and learning."

Deena says, "Talan, that is great. They need all the influence we can give :)"

smylie says, "if we could do a good art work it would attract 'hits' and the trashing of the water attracts corporate patrons"

elin [to Cybele]: mccaffery rasula? Will they have it at Amazon?

Deena says, "Trashing of the water?"

Cybele says, "yes elin"

smylie says, "action different from the normal stream - thrashing"

elin says, "I think that while the corporate designs might be user friendly etc - they are not helping developing literature"

Deena says, "Oh, I get it. The more activitiy., the more attention, the more attention, the more established it becomes."

Cybele says, "corporate patrons, I'll take three, please."

cleo has disconnected.

smylie says, "life surfers "trash""

Deena says, "Elin, why not?"

smylie says, "thrash that is"

Deena says, "Smylie, what are life surfers?"

smylie says, "what are fame surfers?"

elin says, "It is like taking a travel brochyre and reading it as a story :^)"

Deena says, "Talan, how do you see relationships between corporate spheres and writing/art spheres?"

smylie says, "what is the nature of the wave?"

TalanM says, "i am not so sure Elin... atleast at Percepticon... We steal from BeeHive all the time"

Deena says, "How and what do you steal? Can we get more corporations to steal good ideas?"

TalanM says, "for me there is such cross over... because BeeHive is part of my job.. part of my living"

Helen says, "Does it give Percepticon an edge in the market?"

TalanM says, "i test stuff in BeeHive, experiment... of course, in my own work, it is more extreme... but all this trickles down into our client's work"

smylie says, "i would like to explore the possibilities of "subliminal advertising" on the web."

Deena says, "Talan, how does it help the client's work?"

reiner quietly enters.

reiner arrives.

smylie says, "the scene with the Fed Ex truck in "run away bride" as an example of sublim"

Deena says, "Elin, yet you can read travelogues as stories, so there is some cross over. How do you see the crossover in the coroproate, art worlds?"

TalanM says, "Gives us new navigation ideas, methods in DHTML and other areas... it does give us a creative edge which clients find attractive"

elin says, "I think the cross over is where the intention lies -"

Deena says, "Talan, I think that merging these is a good way to show new ideas and perceptions--and push the metagory"

Helen says, "Every commecial web design hgouse should have a web-specific writer/artist on the payroll to do creative things :)"

elin says, "I think that the content will behave completely different in a literary story"

RobS regretfully leaving...

RobS has disconnected.

Deena says, "Talan, can you tell us about Defib. What kind of resources does it offer artists and writers? Why are hangouts on the web important? "

smylie says, "why not the other way around - every art house should have a corporate sponsor on the board?"

Deena says, "Would Defib have anything to offer sponsors?"

TalanM says, " well defidb is part of webartery... interview show hosted by Jim Andrews... It produces interesting dialogs and as an information base I think it is significant... "

Helen says, "trAce certainly has...(but I would think that wouldn't I!)"

Deena says, "Elin, I'm not so sure it would behave differently. I went to Digital Storytelling, which was mostly corporate writers and businessmen trying to tell corporate stories. The motivation may be different (profit vs entertainment) but the need to tell stories is the same"

Deena says, "Talan, what is the URL for Defib?"

TalanM says, "I think hangout are important becasue they allow for a sense of community... Community on the web is really collective rather than communal but it allows people to be 'together-- separate, in common...."

Cybele says, "talan have you tried gooey or any other webpage based chat client?"

Deena says, "I know I often feel alone out here without other e-writers nearby, and I have really enjoyed tgetting with people online and sharing ideas"

Cybele says, "why doesnt run on the mac."

Deena says, "Defib does run on a mac"

TalanM says, ""

elin says, "I don't think that this fusion of corporate motivations and art is bound to lead to fantastic literature - there needs to be a difference"

TalanM says, "i have tried gooey.... resource hog on NT"

Cybele says, "ah, its a good idea tho, is it easy to use?"

smylie says, "why a difference - lots of people work for corps and they are just plain people"

TalanM says, "simple, very simple"

Deena says, "How many here work for corps, or get sponsored by corps?"

Deena says, "Elin, why does there need to be a difference"

smylie says, "i get support indirectly through my wife and her paycheck"

Helen says, "My work with kids writing on the web is sponsored"

reiner says, "no sponsors :)"

elin says, " if everything is supposed to give the *same* experience, it won't give us divercity, will it?"

Helen says, "Am i allowed to mention the sponsor ;)"

Deena says, "work for the federal government"

smylie says, "no sponsors reiner? not even indirect are you independently wealthy?"

Deena says, "Sure, Helen, please do."

reiner says, "i am working at school for bread :)"

Deena says, "This chat is sponsored by the Electronic Literature Organization, which has a list of sponsors, at"

Cybele says, "no sponsors here either, just live frugally."

Helen says, "Experian -- information company based in UK"

TalanM says, " i can speak for myself and Percepticon... That *same* experience is not our intent"

Helen says, "Don't some of you get support from Universities?"

smylie says, "okay - i have no sponsors either"

urk has disconnected.

Deena says, "But this shows some of the relationships between sponsors and writing..a time honored tradition :)"

smylie says, "i think sponsorship might be good - the company would have a reason to promote the art and artists"

Cybele says, "my work has always been too outside to attract sponsors."

Deena says, "Talan, What sites would you suggest that someone new to electronic literature explore?"

reiner says, "--- i never had time to look for sponsors"

smylie says, "my stuff might not be good enough - it's hard to judge oneself"

Deena says, "how do sponsors affect the work?"

JBond quietly enters.

JBond arrives.

JBond says, "hello"

Deena says, "Hi JBond, we are discussing electronic literature, sties, and sponsors. And anything else we feel like talking about"

smylie says, "if we are used to no sponsors, how much effect could sponsorship have on a project?"

elin says, "rushed deadlines:)"

Helen says, "Are we intending to be here much longer -- I have to go feed my family soon?"

Cybele says, "however I would not shy away from no-strings attached monies."

smylie says, "okay helen thanks for the whispers that i couldn't answer because i don't know how"

Deena says, "We can have some wrap up thoughts for the hour from Talan, and continue as long as people feel like discussin"

Helen [to Cybele]: oh tmonies always have strings attached...

JBond says, "are you guys looking for sponsers"

Cybele says, "Ive gotten a few over the years, helen."

Deena says, "To whisper, just type 'whisper' player name and the message.

There is an instruction list on the side--click on look up above to see it"

smylie says, "it would be an interesting twist on collaboration - sure i'd

like to try it"

JBond says, "what will the site contain"

Deena says, "JBond, we have many sites, and many ways of looking for sponsors."

JBond says, "cool what type of site do you have"

TalanM says, "BEEHIVE! no, no.... certainly there, but I usually peruse, search with the words hypertext literature... I think the Progressive Dinner Party is going to be a n incredible collection of work and a rich resource... That is in Riding the Meridian , frAme at trAce has some nice work... "

Deena says, "Electronic Literature is looking for sponsors. We have news flashes, literature sponsors, chat rooms, etc."

smylie says, "i just do things with other artists an it would be great to be

able to pay them"

Cybele says, "talan, was that name choosen in relation to Judy Chicago's

dinner party?"

TalanM says, "as a ref point, yes..."

smylie says, "there is a club in the yorkville gallery district that has a

sign "womens art club" in the high rent district."

Deena says, "BTW, the next chat will cover Marjorie Leusebrink's Progressive Dinner Party, based on Judy's Chicago party. It will be on Wed Feb 23 at 7 pm mountain time, 9 pm Eastern time"

Helen says, "I have to go... will there be a log available of this?"

smylie says, "i guess the subtitle, unwritten, is "men need not apply""

Deena says, "Yes, logs will be up at the electronic literature site,"

Deena says, "Thanks for coming, Helen1"

TalanM says, "believe it or not, I have to go to work in 30 minutes..."

reiner says, "on sunday ?"

TalanM says, "That's what VP means..."

Deena says, "Talan, we'll let you go to work, and thanks so much for coming to the chat. Do you have any other points you wanted to cover?"

Deena says, "Any last questions for Talan?"

smylie says, "what about email as art talen"

TalanM says, "well, I hope people will take a look at LUX when it comes out this week... and my essay in the Progressive Dinner Party... New BeeHive issue is out on LEAP DAY 2000"

Deena says, "We will have the link to Talan's home page here, and Talan, if you send me the URLs, I will put them up here as well"

smylie says, "oops talan i mean"

TalanM says, "email as art, as lit... why not... I am open to all forms... I had a professor, anthropology prof. tell me it's all fiction and waste.... I kind of live by that"

jenniferley quietly enters.

jenniferley arrives.

Deena says, "smylie, have you seen the email novels, such as Forward anywhere?"

Deena says, "Hey Jennifer!"

TalanM says, "jen!"

Helen says, "Thanks for a great chat. I'll come again if the timezones work.

Bye all! Look forward to seeing you at Hypertext 00?"

jenniferley says, "Hi Talan .... allll"

Deena says, "We are just saying goodbye to Talan, who has to go to work on a sunday, but glad you made it"

TalanM says, "see ya in July Helen!"

jenniferley says, "booo hiss"

Deena says, "Helen, yes, please come. The second Sunday is desinged for Europe timeszones, while the fourth Wed is for Aussie time zones"

smylie says, "hiss booo"

TalanM says, "i am always atached to some machine!"

Deena says, "Thanks for coming"

Helen has disconnected.

elin smiles and leaves.. Bye all!

elin tiptoes out.

elin goes home.

smylie says, "but i mean talan - could email be a place to work out a senario?"

jenniferley says, "Deena ... you logged this right? I'm so sorry I'm late"

TalanM says, "that's what it does all the time..."

Cybele says, "deena, how does one get links put up at elit?"

smylie says, "writers take parts"

Deena says, "Jennifer, the logs will be put up at elit"

Deena says, "Meikal, just email me at and I can get them to the right place to get linked"

Deena says, "Or e-mail Scott Rettberg at"

TalanM says, "Deena drop me an email later... I have to run folks... has been fun!"

Deena says, "I think email is the way to communiate."

Deena says, "Thanks so much for coming Talan!"

Cybele says, "thanks Talan,"

reiner says, "thx T"

Deena says, "Jennifer, you have done a lot with emailing for collaboration, right?"

smylie says, "is writing, like "sketching?"

jenniferley says, "that's how the roundtable's work yes?"

TalanM says, "bye"

Deena says, ""bye""

TalanM has disconnected.

smylie says, "bye talan"

Deena says, "I am not sure how the round table works."

jenniferley says, "oops no question mark that is an affirmative yes"

smylie says, "yes?"

Deena says, "Smylie, what have you worked on? --If I may ask, what is your name?"

smylie says, "it's my name and my right mouse arm is recoperating for another collaboration but who knows what?"

Deena says, "Which collaboration did you do? Did you do it with email"

Cybele says, "deena, barry s is on webartery list, he's been posting quite a

bit lately"

smylie says, "just finished one with alan sondheim"

Deena says, "Ahh, thanks, I didn't connect the barry with smylie for some reason."

Deena rewires the synapses in her brain

Cybele says, "sometime anonymity is preferable."

smylie says, "but the sondheim series was more like a book publication than a interactive multi-author web publication"

Deena says, "Very true. But using names and pseudonyms in the same conversation makes it difficutl to follow sometimes. "

Deena says, "I like collaborations where everyone has a part of the web and can port up and then email to do a meta discussion of the work"

smylie says, "i like finding a spot on something like tripod and sharing the password"

jenniferley says, "have you done things like that ... ie. the first Cybermountain??"

reiner says, "i would like to have a collab without e-mail :)"

Deena says, "reiner, how would you do that?"

smylie says, "yeah... neat, just html and contents"

Deena says, "Cybermountain is a great face to face collaboration."

reiner says, "at the moment i work on webxspace with some artists, writers"

smylie says, "the collab would be the "communication""

reiner says, "first step shared webspace"

Deena says, "people brought their own work and others looked at it, whiel people also hatched up new projects and then worked on them after cybermountain"

jenniferley says, "I thought you did a MOO with that tho Deena, didn't you?

smylie says, "to me it reads like a branching"

Deena says, "We did a MOO with the first CyberMountain. THe next CyberMountain will be in conjunction with this chat room"

smylie says, "or a hub"

Cybele says, "reiner, can Deena says more about the nature of your colabs at webxspace?"

reiner says, "the first one was water with christy"

Cybele says, "any projects going on now? are they open to new people?"

Deena says, "Details on cybermountain are at "

reiner says, "but it began outside workxspace"

smylie says, "publishing"

reiner says, "we worked at the end on the same files"

Deena says, "How can people join your collaborations?"

reiner says, "--- will be invited :)"

reiner says, "i have enough to do at the moment"

reiner says, "with the running collab and on eown project"

Deena says, "What projects are you working on now?"

reiner says, "----- hmmmmm my idea of working is a bit difficult :)"

Deena says, "playing? enjoying in the back of your brain?"

smylie says, "what about you Deena?"

smylie says, "what are you doing?"

reiner says, "for the collab project 'currently' "

reiner says, "i invited the artists after asking before...."

reiner says, "i want no leader ....."

Deena says, "I am working on kanji-kus, small poems based on japanese characters, a novel, disappearing rain, and kicking around ideas for a futuristic collaboration"

smylie says, "but yet you "invite?"

reiner says, "yes - in the first step"

smylie says, "so you are leader"

Deena says, "My works in progress are at"

Deena says, "I think you can set it up, then step back and let it run"

reiner says, "i have given a very 'general' theme"

Cybele says, "which is?"

reiner says, "'current'"

Cybele says, "that's pretty general."

reiner says, "i set up a page - that was the theme"

smylie says, "bzzzd"

jenniferley says, "all forms of current?? electrical, water ..."

Deena says, "I may have gotten interrupted current? as in current events, or currents of a stream?"

Cybele says, "where's tesla when you need him?"

reiner says, "no the page i made leads more to 'currently'"

Deena sticks her finger in the light socket

smylie says, "do you give out passwords or do you direct the html program flow"

reiner says, "password-login info all"

reiner says, "they could mess up the whole site :)"

smylie says, "can the other "writers" choose different solutions... or split off to different urls"

reiner says, "theme was to explore collab itself"

jenniferley says, "you're a brave man reiner :)"

Sue quietly enters.

Sue arrives.

Deena says, "So, as meikal said, the process is the important part..."

jenniferley says, "Hi Sue :)"

Deena says, "Hi Sue, we are talking about collaborations and how they work in electronic literature"

reiner says, "hi sue"

Sue smiles.

Sue says, "hi everyone"

smylie says, "i have to go, mary and i have a thing planned"

Sue says, "not sure if i can stay long but wanted to pop in to say hi"

Deena says, "Thanks for coming. "

reiner says, "ciao."

Sue says, "where is talan?"

smylie says, "thanks to you all"

smylie has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove smylie.

Cybele says, "see ya barry....."

jenniferley says, "I should get back to coding ... and next time I'll buy a bigger alarm clock ..."

jenniferley says, "bye all"

jenniferley has disconnected.

Deena says, "Talan had to run to work, but we will do the progressive dinner party Wed 23 "

Sue says, "sorry - are you just finishing up?"

reiner says, "nye jen"

Cybele says, "jeez jen, you cant get up by 10"

Deena says, "Or is it 1 on the east coast now?"

Deena says, "Yes, we are wrapping up"

Cybele says, "I should be going too, thanks Deena for getting this going,

I'll send you some urls for the elit site..."

reiner says, "i think i will leave too - sorry :)"

Deena says, "thanks meikal"

Sue says, "sorry i got here so late"

Sue says, "will leave you to it then! and i will join the mailing list"

Deena says, "No problem. How did you get the email? through wich list?"

Cybele has disconnected.

reiner says, "seeu miekal and all - thanx deena +++++"

Sue says, "helen just told me it was going on"

Deena says, "Thanks for coming reiner. "

reiner has disconnected.

Sue says, "see you another time!"

Sue waves.


Related Links: