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-- Start log: Sunday, March 4, 2001 2:24:05 p.m. CST

Deena says, "Hi Scott"

Scottr says, "Hi Deena"

terry arrives.

Deena says, "Hi Terry"

terry says, "Hi all"

terry says, "Hi... don't mind me, I'm just a 'tourist' :)"

Deena says, "You are welcome to stay--you can see the discussion topics at the left"

Scottr says, "We're all tourists in eliteratureland."

Deena says, "Where are you from, Terry?"

terry says, "I'm a member of the CS faculty of Athabasca U in Canada... I'm looking at other MOO applications."

Deena says, "Terry, this might be an interesting chat for you, we are discussion how colleges are using MOOs, online records, and online workshops"

Vika arrives.

terry says, "Sounds great"

Deena says, "Hi Vika"

Vika says, "Hello, all."

Deena says, "We have these trAce/ELO chats every Sunday. You can get more info at http://www.eliterature.org/com/index.shtml."

Deena passes out Sundaes and cookies

Nodeler (JJ Runnion) says, "Mmmm .... Sundaes ... and cookies!"

Nodeler smiles

Deena says, "With little jimmie sprinkles and whipped cream..."

Nodeler says, "And me on a low fat, no calcium diet!"

Deena says, "Well, all of these are no fat, no calcium, so enjoy.."

Nodeler lol

Deena says, "JJ, Terry is looking at other moos for work in academia as well.."

Deena introduces Nodeler to Terry

terry says, "Hi"

Nodeler says, "Very cool. We are putting up one at UT-Austin based on this core"

Deena says, "Terry, JJ, how do you use MOOS in classrooms?"

terry says, "We have our own MOO which was student-developed , but is text only"

Deena says, "You should talk with Jan and Cynthia, the creators here..."

Nodeler says, "Our old Cheshire Moon was text based, too. I haven' t been using a Moo the last year or so, though"

Deena says, "Im not sure how they got graphics in it..."

terry says, "Our university is mostly involved in distance ed, and our students use the MOO mostly for socializing"

Deena says, "It is a good place to meet..."

Deena hands round the wine and cheese for socializing

Nodeler says, "I know that Jan and Cynthia are real helpful and open to others using the encore interface ..."

Deena says, "Do you hold classes in MOOs?"

terry says, "That's one of the reasons I am here... I'm exploring this interface to see if we could either use it, or try to emulate some of it's features in the development of our MOO."

Helen arrives, like a train from Platform 9 and three-quarters

Deena says, "Hi Helen !"

Helen says, "Hello all!"

Cosmos Guest arrives.

Deena says, "Hi cosmos, "

Deena says, "We are waiting for our guest speakers Erin and Peg"

Scottr says, "Are they en route?"

Deena says, "I think so..."

Scottr says, "Helen, are many writing programs in the UK using classroom conferencing?"

Helen says, "Scott -- not many that I know of -- but there aren't many writing programs here -- but such conferencing is taking off in our university now and probably elsewhere"

Deena says, "Terry, with the distance learning in your college, are you using moos and other interfaces to teach writing?"

terry says, "We use conference boards also, probably more than the MOO."

Deena says, "Have you seen the trAce conference boards?"

terry says, "No."

Scottr says, "Both of the rhetoric programs I taught in had networked classroom -- at Illinois State, all the freshman English classes we're taught in a networked classroom, back in 94."

Helen says, "Sometimes, the professors have to log on as fake students to get the chat going, but then it takes off naturally. has anyone else had to do that?"

Helen says, "Scott please explain "Networked classroom""

Elizabethj says, "Hi Deena & all"

Scottr says, "The classrooms were all computer labs -- using an early chat and conferencing system, Daedelus. It was interesting how the students used it -- we'd typically have about 20 minutes focused on the topic at hand, and then the socializing part would take over."

Nodeler says, "We still use the Daedalus a bit here, too."

Helen says, "I've found I have to let them loose to socialize and be daft for the first 20 minutes that we introduce them to the environment, THEN they settle down a bit."

Deena says, "Terry, you said earlier that your moos were used mostly for socializing...is it because of the same phenomena?"

terry says, "Our students are all working from home.. the MOO is the only interactive communication they can have with each other."

Deena says, "Terry, Helen, how has the internet changed your teaching methods?"

Scottr says, "I knew someone at Cincinnati who was writing her dis on student behaviors in conferencing classrooms -- she actually did all-conferencing classes, where there were no spoken lectures or discussions. All the students would meet in the lab, and the class would start silently, on the computers."

Deena says, "So the students would meet in real time, but would only talk online?"

Scottr says, "Yeah, in person, in real time, in one physical room."

Deena says, "Have you worked with both synchronous and a synchronous chats?"

Helen says, "I'm wondering what the point of that is, Scott?? If you're in a classroom physically there are probably better ways to communicate with one another. Surely online communication is ideal for Terry's situation and mine, where students aren't physically present?"

Scottr says, "Really, I thought it was a bit extreme."

Scottr says, "But she was writing her dissertation on it and needed a control group I guess."

Nodeler says, "Actually, Helen, the dynamics in a classroom change in interesting ways when the communication is not f2f, but typed."

Deena says, "I think we can use computers well when classes meet in real time, but I don't think I would go to the extreme of communicating on ly online..."

Deena says, "JJ, ow do the dynamics change?"

Nodeler says, "Many of the students who are reluctant to speak f2f really shine in the networked environment."

terry says, "I can see the usefulness of that."

Deena says, "Hmmm...even when they know who is typing what?"

Scottr says, "Actually, I found that an about 50/50 mix worked. because the group of students would be most communicative in the chat room was different form the vocal group in discussions. Yeah."

Deena says, "The anonymity of the chat environment would help for introverts :)"

terry says, "They might not know who is who in that situation."

Nodeler says, "Yes. Those of us who tend to dominate f2f communication are slowed down a bit! And some students really like being able to think about their words and typing seems to help that process."

Deena says, "Those who can type fastest dominate then!!"

Deena says, "JJ, could you talk about the Online Learning Record and how it works?"

Elizabeth says, "I think that communicating through computers in a live/real-time writing class serves to draw attention to the materiality of language in communication in a way that is extremely useful."

Helen says, "I agree about the mixture... and it's fascinating how RL and online personalities of individuals differ! I once found a very retiring and shy student immediately started flirting very suggestively when introduced to the MOO!!"

Nodeler says, "Well, in the absence of Peg, I can help out a bit."

Deena says, "As we don't know who people are, we can talk more freely?"

Deena searches for our guest speakers...

Scottr says, "And a lot of what you're trying to do in a writing classroom is to get students writing, putting thoughts together in type, so it's great for that."

Deena says, "Hi Michael, we are talking about education and MOOs."

MichaelB says, "Hi Deena, education I have some idea about but, MOOs, no."

Deena says, "Well, we are also looking at how the internet has changed educating methods... "

Nodeler says, "Regarding the OLR: Basically, the Online Learning Record (the OLR) is a more sophisticated and expanded version of portfolios. It incorporates not only student work, but their own interpretation of their work, as well. Each student is responsible for observing their own process of learning, documenting it over the course of the semester, and interpreting their learning in a final OLR at semester end. I also have them evaluate their own grade for the semester based on the criteria I have given them."

Deena says, "Have you had or taught courses that use moos or online writing centers?"

Scottr says, "So is the OLR shared only between the student and the teacher?"

Deena says, "So, JJ, you use the OLR in face to face classrooms."

Nodeler says, "Not in my class. There are parts of the OLR that are totally private, but others are shared."

Deena passes around tiny electronic briefcases to keep all the papers in...

Scottr says, "Or are parts of it accessible to other students."

Nodeler says, "I teach in a networked classroom of 20 to 24 students."

Deena says, "Can students collaborate on work?"

Nodeler says, "Absolutely. In my course, that is one of four "Strands" of the course."

Scottr says, "How do they collaborate?"

Deena says, "How have you found the OLR you found that the internet helps students collaborate?"

Nodeler says, "Currently, the class I' m teaching is on Cybertext literature. They work together to develop first a Storyspace essay, then a large hypertext project."

Deena says, "So the OLR can help keep track of all of the work and who did what where?"

Scottr says, "Oh fabulous. do you have a web-page or syllabus?"

Nodeler says, "If Deena will put up the URL again, there are links to the main OLR pages. I will also send my own page URL."

Deena says, "Do you take students online to see the cybertexts?"

Nodeler says, "Yep. They especially like the "Poemsthatgo.com" site. "

Deena says, "Where should we click?"

Nodeler says, "The first URL to the Online Learning Record gives an overview and you can find the forms and such as well."

Helen says, "Is there a link to the cybertext syllabus there?"

Nodeler says, "This is my own version of the OLR @url http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~runnion/314/olr."

Deena says, "How many universities are using the OLR?"

Scottr says, "I'd imagine this cuts down on a lot of administrative hassle, the shuffling around of all those paper portfolios. I remember trudging through the snow with a bix carboard bos full of them."

Deena throws out her carboard boxes...

Helen has just ordered a large consignment of cardboard boxes

Deena starts collaborations on the backs of the cardboard boxes.

Nodeler says, "For that, you' d need to ask Peg ... I do know that we are instituting it across the whole spectrum of our freshman comp classes in a year or so."

Nodeler says, "In some ways, it is a bit more work at the front end. However, it really emphasizes student ownership of their own learning."

Scottr says, "So how does the collaborative hypertext project work?"

Deena says, "How do you get students to start thinking about collaborating?"

Nodeler says, "For my course, the students decide what aspect of Cybertexts they want to look at, and then develop a web-site for it. It takes half the semester"

Nodeler says, "Sink or Swim in my class!"

Everdeen arrives.

Deena says, "Hi Everdeen, we are talking about collaboration and the online learning record.

Helen has disconnected.

MichaelB says, "It's interesting that you're talking about online learning I still think in terms of conventional learning. "

Deena says, "Yes, what are the differences between online learning and conventional learning?"

Helen has connected.

Scottr says, "It would be cool to do a class that was collaborative online storytelling the whole semester. One of the things I found as a rhet/comp teacher was that students tended to focus more on the details of their writing, and tended to value it more, when they considered it a public act."

Deena says, "What differences do you see in internet classrooms and conventional ones?"

Helen shakes her head at being whooshes in and out

Deena comforts Helen with Sundaes made from cardboard box tops

Nodeler says, "I agree, Scott. I have shifted to almost all Web based writing for that reason."

MichaelB says, "Writing is a public act, isn't it? "

Deena says, "Good point, Michael, but I think the internet makes writing more public more quickly... it is an instantaneous publications../"

Nodeler says, "Do you mean DL classes?"

Deena says, "DL as in digital literature?"

Nodeler says, "No, as in Distance Learning ... sorry!"

Scottr says, "It is, but in writing classrooms, sometimes students view their essays as having a one person audience -- the teacher. Which brings in a whole set of problems. it's a different relationship when you're addressing a larger audience."

Deena says, "Yes, as in distance learning... how to the interactions differ?"

Deena says, "Do students read each other's works when the works are available on line?"

Helen says, "Surely students need to be encouraged to write for a variety of media: writing for the Web is very different from writing essays for handing in or articles or anything else print."

Deena says, "Does collaborating on works make students feel like their work is more public?"

Nodeler says, "My students are required to, but I don' t teach distance learning, so I can' really address the earlier question."

Via says, "Deena- they do in a writing workshop I'm taking right now. Read works in progress, whether or not they are up for a crit the following week."

Deena says, "Good point, Helen. How do we teach these different forms of writing?"

Deena says, "Do all the students criticize each other's works..."

Via says, "So it's always public, unless you choose not to put it up on the shared server..."

Elizabeth says, "If students are asked to find links to & from each other's work they read it Deena."

Deena says, "Via, how does the knowledge that your work is public affect your writing?"

Helen says, "We don't teach comp and rhetoric in this country at all so I don't really know what it is!!!"

Deena says, "Elizabeth, that makes sense. That is a great way to teach navigation and connection skills."

Deena wonders if it is only in America that we need rhetoric...

Via says, "It leads me to put up larger, more polished chunks, as opposed to working [almost] right off the server. I cheat. :)"

Scottr says, "Actually, you do, but it's just integrated into the curriculum at a far earlier stage."

Nodeler says, "I'm not sure that public is as important as the question of audience. And students don' t deterministically think of audience simply by virtue of it being web based."

Scottr says, "Not taught as a separate class."

Helen says, "Yes Scott I believe you're right... we call it by different names too."

Deena says, "Can the web and online writing centers help teach print forms of writing?"

Helen says, "Does the Online Learning Record have any relevance to Lifelong Learning? Could it be adapted by an individual to be a record of their work and leisure learning and personal development?"

Scottr says, "In the US we have vast differences in the secondary curriculum. some students have written dozens of papers in highschool, while others have done nothing but scantron multiple choice."

Deena says, "Would a national online learning system help even this out, Scott?"

Scottr says, "A nationalized education tax base might."

Nodeler says, "I've found that students are much more aware of higher orders of writing skills when I use Storyspace and web writing. "

Deena says, "JJ, does the Online Learning system need a teacher to administer? Could it be adapted so that one person can track her work throughout her life?"

Nodeler says, "I suppose it would depend on the purpose. I don' see why it couldn't be used by an individual for their own self-introspection and tracking. I do something somewhat like it just as a journal."

Deena envisions a way to track and journal.

Deena says, "Do people look back on their work and track it in this kind of a way?"

Deena says, "I guess it would depend on the need for introspection..."

Helen says, "Have you got any instructions/documentation on using it that way Nodeler"

Via says, "How long has OLR existed? Have people yet had a chance to make it a lifelong learning thing?"

Deena says, "Good point, Via. I wonder how an electronic journal or record would differ from a print record in terms of tracking writing progress.."

Nodeler says, "One of the things I like about the OLR is that it reinforces introspection on the part of learners ... and that' s something most of my students have little or know relationship with!"

Scottr says, "Presumably only those with very short lives"

Deena says, "How does it reinforce introspection?"

Deena passes around life extenders.

Nodeler says, "It began many years ago (actually, in England I believe) as a learning record that wasn't online."

Elizabeth grabs two life extenders; one for later ...

Nodeler says, "Then it became the California Learning record"

Deena says, "So the concept of learning records have been around"

Nodeler says, "Then Peg developed it with some others at UCSD as the OLR"

Helen says, "I have recently been given a personal development portfolio which I suspect is something very similar to a learning record."

Deena guiltily remembers the black marks in her permanent record file and hopes they don't find a way to the new electronic learning record.

Deena says, "How does the personal development portfolio work?"

Nodeler will be right back.

Helen has to admit she hasn't figured it out yet.

Deena says, "JJ, why do writers need the introspection? What benefits does introspection bring?"

Deena says, "I keep journals, but never reread to see progress. I wonder if doing that retrospection would help my writing..."

Helen says, "I like to reread the journals, you can see where you were going and then how something stopped you."

Deena says, "Yes, and maybe learn how to deal with something all over again..."

Nodeler says, "In part, it helps the student to become more an owner of their own learning and writing"

Deena has a hard time thinking of who would own the work if not the student...

Helen says, "That's certainly a lifelong learning aim!"

Deena says, "So it instills more pride in the work? More pleasure in creation?"

Nodeler says, "Students tend to write for the teacher ... the teacher "Owns" their work and is responsible for their learning!"

MichaelB says, "I keep diaries of course as a matter of habit."

Deena says, "Hmmm... I guess I hadn't thought of it that way. "

Deena says, "Would an OLR help if there were no teacher to write to or for?"

Helen says, "It'd be even more necessary to keep you focused."

Deena says, "Michael, do you see the progress in your diaries?"

cyberrrdude arrives from Tower of Babble

Deena says, "Yes, and maybe even increase the sense of ownership as you become the teacher as you mark your own progress..."

Helen says, "Perhaps it would be worth considering adapting it as a personal development aid, which could be sold as software."

cyberrrdude says, "Hi"

Deena says, "Hi cyberdude, we are discussing the merits of an online learning record, where you can track your writing progress."

cyberrrdude says, "Is Sue here?""

MichaelB says, "The point in keeping diaries is to have material for later writing."

Deena says, "Personal development would work..."

Helen says, "Was it specifically developed for learning writing? It should be adaptable to all forms of learning surely?"

cyberrrdude says, "Er, I'll try to join in - I'm new to this."

Scottr says, "Gotta go. good talking to you all."

Helen says, "MichaelB, yes, that's one great reason...but so is tracking progress"

Deena says, "I guess it would be good to track learning progress in any subject..."

cyberrrdude says, "Ok. how many people here? u all in Nottingham?""

Nodeler says, "I use it for teaching Lit classes, others for freshman comp, and it's been used in graduate classes on Complexity, Distributed Cognition, information theory, and lots of other things."

Deena says, "Or even physical progress...thinking about a friend of me who can't see the strides she has made in coming back fro a severe illness..."

Deena says, "Well, I'm in Colorado, we are all spread out. "

cyberrrdude says, "Ok. cool."

Deena says, "Sounds like a good learning system. "

Nodeler says, "I'm in Texas, but don' hold it against me, y'all"

cyberrrdude says, "Hehe ok nodeler""

Everdeen grins at Nodeler from Houston.

Deena says, "I think we are going to see major changes in education from the web and internet and online records..."

Deena looks greedily for the future.

Nodeler says, "I also used this to teach a class in Creative Writing: Cybermedia last semester."

Deena wishes she had been there...

Nodeler wishes she had been there too!

Deena says, "How do you think that the internet will change the way people learn and keep track of their progress? How will distance learning be shaped in the future?"

Nodeler says, "Sadly, I think that the business model will continue to dominate and increase in its influence such that the kind of learning I'm most interested in may disappear"

Deena says, "Ouch... that sounds depressing..."

cyberrrdude says, "Question: is hypertext an ephemeral medium?"

MichaelB says, "Thanks."

Nodeler says, "Tell me about it."

Deena says, "Mar 18ths chat is on business models."

Deena says, "We want to find someway to work within the structure..."

Helen says, "Cyberdude, that's the billion dollar question"

Deena says, "I am not so pessimissitic, I think we will be able to find ways to ride the technological advances and take advantage of the commercialization."

cyberrrdude says, "Yes - it's a new one for me."

Deena thinks about deliberately ephemeral pieces of hypertext...

cyberrrdude says, "It just doesn't compare to a good book :-) ""

Nodeler says, "Eventually, I think that you are right ... and for the few who are focused on art and creativity it will continue to work. But education as a whole, for the near term, is not going to benefit much imho."

Helen says, "No comparison -- they're different media!"

cyberrrdude says, "True""

Deena says, "Why do we keep comparing books and hypertexts? we don't compare sculpture and cooking."

Nodeler lol

cyberrrdude says, "But the newer one is derived from its predecessor."

Deena says, "Are there any steps we can take to help education benefit from the technology?"

Via agrees with Nodeler - if nothing else, distance learning is mired in bureaucracy too much to focus on the actual media through which it should happen.

Deena says, "I dunno. I think the newer one stems from the possibilities in the media itself..."

Via says, "Deena - Do things on a small level? Micro-invade?"

The housekeeper arrives to cart Elizabeth off to bed.

Deena sends microinvaders through the internet's cracks.

MichaelB says, "One day I will understand this."

Deena says, "Sounds like the best way to go, VIA... keep pushing for classes, keep getting things and journals on the web."

cyberrrdude says, "Yes but narrative has a long, long tradition...."

Deena says, "Michael, understand this moo interface? hypertext?"

Nodeler says, "Part of the problem with those who "Study" hypertext and who are looking at it is that we insist on using terms and contexts that are not embedded in the media, but are holdovers from the print past."

cyberrrdude says, "Hypertext is not separate."

Deena says, "Good point, Nodeler. We keep using old words to describe new things!"

cyberrrdude says, "It is culturally embedded."

Deena hands out new words for old lamps.

Deena says, "How is it culturally embedded?"

Via says, "Print past?..."

Deena rushes past prints...

Nodeler says, "I think it is really more useful to think of it as culturally emergent."

cyberrrdude says, "Because it involves human interaction in predictable ways."

Deena says, "How is it culturally emergent?"

Nodeler says, "As a complex system with multiple vectors of influence, the form and content of cybermedia is emerging out of the chaos."

Deena says, "In that it is stemming from the new technology, or stemming from the traditions of text and communication?"

cyberrrdude says, "There's nothing essentially new about cyberspace, it's a reconfiguration of the old."

Deena says, "Wait, I think there is something inherently new. now for the first time, we have many to many communication."

cyberrrdude says, "Sex, community, commerce, art.....etc."

Deena says, "Tv, radio, etc. were 1 to many."

cyberrrdude says, "Nothing new there."

Deena says, "Now we can find the communities that used to be separated by so much distance..."

Nodeler says, "Seems as if"

cyberrrdude says, "True. have u seen rheingold's work?""

Deena says, "Now we can connect smaller communities --people who like goofy pez dispensers, whatever..."

Nodeler says, " or those of us who are goofy dispensers"

cyberrrdude says, "But I think 'we' also need to consider how cyberspace FAILS""

cyberrrdude says, "To avoid a kind of techno-idealism""

Deena says, "How does cyberspace fail?"

cyberrrdude says, "Because it has no physical correlation.And only the educated and literate few really use it well."

Helen says, "Are we officially finishing now?"

Deena says, "Yes, we are officially finishing at the hour. the recorder will be turned off and you are welcome to stay for coffee..."

Deena says, "We will have the log of this chat up at http://www.eliterature.org/com/index.shtml and at trAce http://hum-webboard.ntu.ac.uk/~trace"

Deena checks her watch and serves after chat coffee and chocolate

Nodeler says, "Well, I really do need to get back to work now. It's been fun! And so good to chat with you Deena! see ya!"

Everdeen accepts coffee from Deena with thanks!

Deena says, "I need to get back to work too..."

Deena says, "Thanks for coming!"

cyberrrdude says, ""

Helen says, "It's late, I must to bed. Bye all!"

Via says, "Thanks, Deena! "

Via bounces out

Everdeen carries coffee out the door and waves goodbye

-- End log: Monday, March 5, 2001 6:52:14 am CST

Related Links:

• Eastgate
• ELO
• trAce
• The Online Learning Record
• Poems that Go