Chat Transcript: April 6, 2002

Join in the ELO Symposium vicariously--

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Start log: Saturday, April 6, 2002 2:21:15 pm CST

Deena says, "I have turned the recorder on, could you guys re-introduce yourselves?"
Bill.Cole says, "I'm Bill Cole, and I'm a grad student in English. Working on a diss involving MOOspace for presenting literary texts."
][mez][ is a mezangeller, wurdsmithia.n][et][ & c.Ode wa][n][xer...
runran says, "I'm Randy Adams, a tutor at trAce and web artist [i think]"
Deena says, "I'm Deena Larsen, and I instigated this chat as a way to get folks who couldn't be at the ELO Symposium to come in unreal onlineity"
Marna_S says, "I'm Marna Schwartz, and I'm working toward an MFA in integrated electronic arts."
runran says, "It's only noon, is anyone up yet ;-)"
][mez][ says, "I dittoh B.C on that 1"
][mez][ says, "Its 6.42 AM here on a sunday morning!!"
Deena says, "I was up tipsy until one am no sleep coffee jitters closing in... so forgive the slow typing..."
Marna_S admires mez's dedication
][mez][ says, "Me 2 marna....i set the alarm & ini.tially said bugga it, then lay awake there anyway;0"
Deena says, "I have Helen here too"
Bill.Cole smiles.][mez][ says, "Heya helen!!"runran says, "Hey helen"
Bill.Cole says, "Which Helen would that be?"
Deena says, "Hi Bill, Helen Whitehead here"
][mez][ says, "Helen Whitehead, trace boffin & hypa.textual goddess;)"
Deena says, "And hello to everyone else...."
ELO says, "Howdy Hidy ho--" Bill.Cole says, "Howdy! "

Editor's note: Deena, Helen, and others changed identity through the chat almost at will.

Bridging the Symposium
Deena says, "It has been an exciting time here at the Symposium"
][mez][ gets all high.purr.kinked
][mez][ says, "The s.imp][ish][.osium must b thrilling deena, any relevant dis.closures u can share with us?;)"
Bill.Cole says, "Thanks for doing that, Deena."
Deena says, "Well, we have had several exciting panels today and more on the way..."
][mez][ says, "G.o .o.n. deena..."
Deena says, "Passing the coffee with an extra big dollop of cream for mez" ][mez][ says, "Eheh thx d;)"
][mez][ says, "Eheh sounds like yr havin a blast;)"
Deena says, "We really are. I am in the gallery, and folks are looking at e--lectronic works"

mez' work
Deena says, " Hi mez, people here are raving about your work!"
][mez][ says, "Thanks Helen....any commnets about it u can chuck in here 2 start a discussion with?"
Deena says, "You and Talan are starting a new genre of the new media canon."
Deena says, "Well, actually you've both been going a while"
Deena says, "Mez, Kate Hayles cited you in her keynote. Twas very nice"

Changing shifts
ELO says, "I am now going to presto change identities and become deena while helen becomes elo and others join in and out of existence in real and off line and online life"
Marna_S wonders who ELO is representing
runran says, "And who might the plurality of guests be?"
][mez][ says, "Deena, how do u c this new genre as m.mergening/ent? do u mean the mix of fictocritical l.ements within a traditional theory purrs.pective or the ide of code.wurks?"
Deena says, "ELo is now being typed by Helen Whitehead ta da!"
ELO says, "OK, now Deena is Deena and ELO is Helen"

Conference summary
Deena says, "Ok here is the rundown scoop on the conference so far:"
ELO says, "Most of the attendees are still in a panel on Elit in the University"
Bill.Cole rubs his hands in excitement.
][mez][ says, "*list.ening*"
Deena says, "Deena is now joined by Stephanie Strickland"
][mez][ says, "How.D steph:)"
Marna_S says, "which Steph?"
Deena says, "We did wonderful readings with Stuart Moulthrop, Caitlin Fisher, John Cayley, Talan Memmott, Rob Wittig, Judy Malloy, Noah Wardrip Fruin, the Unknonwn Nick Monfort, Shelley Jackson, and a host of others""
ELO has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove ELO.
Deena Oh I forgot! the illustrious Stephanie Strickland did a great reading last night too.
Helen quietly enters.
Helen arrives, like a train from Platform 9 and three-quarters
Bill.Cole says, "The readings sound cool."
Marna_S says, "That all sounds so excellent"
][mez][ says, "w o w..the whole she.bang....."
Dene quietly enters.
Dene arrives in her golden chariot drawn by two fiery dragons.
Deena says, "Deena makes real life connections with Dene who she SEES for the first time even though she has sat at the conference"
][mez][ says, "Eheh hell.N;)"
Deena says, "Steph says hi to mez and all"
Marna_S says, "Is that Stephanie Strickland?"
][mez][ says, "Tell SS hey.ya;)" Deena says, "Steph says Hi to Marna from DAC"
Dene says, "Hi" Dene says, "Aren't fleshmeets interesting?"
Deena says, "Yest Deena is typing for Stephanie Strickland"
Steph smiles at the caps and deena's fast typos
Marna_S says, "Hi!"
][mez][ says, "Nope B.C, I don't do realtime conferences..."
Dene smiles

Bill.Cole says, "Not to change the subject, but who all's gonna be at HT02?"
Deena says, "We are doing the hypertext writers workshop at HT02 and will have a great crowd with Rich Higgason Stuart and I don't know who else"
Bill.Cole says, "I might sign on for the Workshop if it doesn't conflict with the Doctoral Consortium... "
Deena says, "The workshop is June 12. The info for HT02 is at""

Dene says, "I teach in a MOO like this on Thursday evenings, I love this environment to work in"
Marna_S is glad she can place me
Helen says, "Oh we're really MOO addicts..."
][mez][ gets all ideo.][dia][logical;)

Major conference themes
Deena says, "Dene, Helen, what are the major things to come out of this conference, do you think?"
Dene says, "I thought the notion of the canon to be a very provocative issue"
Deena points at mez to the future of writing
][mez][ says, "X.actly deena, there's a complete con][ference][vo lurking in the idea of new fictocritical assessment of code.wurks and there para.lelling thru.out the e.scape....."
Dene nods at Deena
][mez][ says, "w.o.w.....thx 4 letting me no, deena...."
Helen says, "Bob Coover's keynote included Mez too"
][mez][ b.lushes ][mez][ says, ":)"
Marna_S says, "Go mez!"

Cannon fodder
Helen says, "I must admit, in my hypertext/web writing I have NEVER aspired to be in a canon!"
Deena hands round cannon balls for all who aspire to be shot out of cannons.
Helen says, "I'd rather be the online equivalent of a popular author"
Dene says, "No one aspires to a canon. It occurs"
Deena says, "Noah is here working on the New Media Reader which may be a cannon."
Deena shoots loose cannons everywhere and spatters all with more coffee, juice, champagne and strawberries

Criticism on criticism
Dene says, "The discussion about criticism was also insightful"
Dene says, "Though not much got said about new ways to critique these kinds of works"
][mez][ says, "Can u brief us on any points from the criticism panel?"
][mez][ says, "Ahh"
Helen says, "Yes I was disappointed in the criticism discussion"
][mez][ says, "That's kinda wot i was after, comments regarding that..oh well..."
Dene nods at Helen
Dene says, "I wanted something to be said about moving away from traditional kinds of critical terms and theories"
Dene says, "The one comment about that was the idea that we are moving away from a hermeneutical approach to an "Abservational" one"
Dene says, "Folks were more converned about what got critiqued rather than what one says about a work"
][mez][ says, "Abservational?"
Dene says, "Interpretative rather than observational"
Helen says, "Yes it seemed to be mostly about teaching hypertext/new media in a literature class or in traditional published papers"
Dene says, "But more of that kind of discussion would have been good"
Helen says, "Sorry to be dense -- what does hermeneutical mean?"
Dene says, "Oh sorry, a look at a text that requires interpretation"
Deena says, "Steph says hermenutics is interpretive, like on the Bible, you pass it out and interpret in terms of a definite scheme. When James says this it ends up meaning all these things down the line"
Helen says, "The interesting question - about how much the critics took into account the new aspects of the technology interfaces when critiquing a work -- the panel all refused to answer!"Helen says, "They were still talking about critiquing Afternoon"
Deena Steph has laryngitis--all misunderstandings are on deena's side

Print media
Deena says, "The keynote this morning by Jason Epstein was interesting--as a publisher, he covered how traditional print media was moving into the digital realm with print on demand machines. I wish we had had time to get into what happens to books you can't print out though."
Deena says, "Yeah, we should get you mez and Talan to do the language of the machine breaking out into the human"
][mez][ says, "I'm wurkin on a piece 2 the mo called _Awe.Top.C# Code_..2 do with the realignment of code 7 its cult.ural re][under][wiring....."
Deena beholds a human skin which breaks apart as assembly language pores forth from its body.
][mez][ says, "And vice-vurss.ah deena;)"
runran passes deena a bandaid
Dene says, "He was rather positive wasn't he? I mean, he did not offer much of the way of the problems associated with the new technology he was describing."
Deena says, "Right, Dene he was much more concerned with ASCII able work, no links, sound, images, or stuff that we E-lectronic writers LOVE."
Deena says, "Steph says or beyond that the kind of installation work we had at the technopoetry festival"Dene says, "I have been taking notes for every session and will put these online for folks when I get home, if any one of you would like to see them"
Marna_S says, "I would like to see them!" ][mez][ says, "I'd lurve 2 purr.ruse those notes D..."
Dene says, "I will post a link to them here and they will be in full text at Nouspace"
Deena says, "Yes, Dene, please put those on the ELO site too. Talk with Jessica, who has done a wonderful job putting this conference together" Dene nods at Deena
][mez][ says, "Hope.fully some of these issues will b covered there......"
Dene says, "Yes, and of course the question had to be asked"
Deena says, "Dene, please give us the URL for Nouspace"
Dene says, "Nouspace is"
Deena gets it Nouspace like the Greek
Deena says, "Steph asks what is code 7?""
Helen says, "Mez, talk to to me about frAme re that...."
Helen says, "Not now..."
Dene says, "I would love to see some of the videoclips posted for folks"
Helen says, "Yes Jessica has been great"
Deena wonders if Dene can nod when Deena is behind her...
Dene says, "Just 20 seconds clips of the most insightful comments made"
Dene says, "A sort of video "Best of""
Deena says, "Yes, Dene, the ELO site will eventually have all the video of the speakers on the site. Not making promises as to when"

][mez][ says, "Oops i mean t to write the tile of the gnu piece which is _Awe.Top.C# Code_ the code 7 bit should have read "Code & its cult.ural" etc"

Waking up
][mez][ says, "Sorry still not fulli a.wake here..."
][mez][ says, "Helen yup i will helen..."
Dene says, "Yes and the french"
Deena throws around code as cult pins and dances with the Hari cod-nas
Dene says, "And the slant rhyme for new"
Deena poours codes of coffee in mez' ears
][mez][ says, "Eheheh hope its helps D;)"
Dene says, "I will leave now and get some lunch"Dene says, "It was good to see all of you"Dene says, "Bye"
][mez][ says, "_Awe.Top.C#_ = Autopsy"
Helen says, "Bye Dene -- it is hard to fit in lunch!"
Deena says, "Yeah, this is a hardship on us real lifers as this is through lunch..."
][mez][ says, "Eek"
Deena says, "Yeah, we shoulda planned this better..."
Helen says, "Let's see if there're any bagels left fro coffee break..."
Deena says, "So it goes. I will know for next time."
][mez][ n.jects pulses of lectronic sustenance @ all present
Bill.Cole says, "Thx, mez. I was thinking 'A wet top c' and that wasn't getting me anywhere"
][mez][ says, ":)"
Deena says, "This actually came about as part of a chat we had on collaborating with the electronic artist and musicians, but I did not get this out in time to do that..." Deena says, "Real life interfered..."
][mez][ says, "Ehehe fair enuff B.C"
Deena Steph has gone in real life to see if there are any leftovers for hungry moo-ers
][mez][ says, "Funni how RL has a way of doin that D:)"
Helen nod runran
Deena passes around more gallons of virtual coffee and takes off her shakes
Deena Steph has saved Deena's life with real live food on the table. Deena's typing slows dramatically

Back to conference summary
Deena says, "Bill, others, what would you like to see from this conference"
][mez][ says, "So D, any other noticable points raised during the panels?"
Deena says, "Yeah, helen raised a great point about editing in John's keynote."
][mez][ says, "Eheh"
Helen says, "What is the definitin of eliterature? was a big one"
][mez][ says, "& how was that answered H?"
Bill.Cole isn't sure what he wants to see.
runran wonders how much press the conference is getting, if any?
Marna_S says, "I would like to see transcripts of the talks"
Deena says, "I like Stuart's epigram if the FBI did not exist the mafia would have to invent it"
Helen says, "Epstein thought editors would always be with us -- personally I'm not so sure"
Deena says, "Rhonda would like to say hi to mez and meet virtually"
Deena Rhonda and mez shake hands
][mez][ says, "I'd luv 2 c this conference b.gin 2 deal with issues of labelling & genre structure & how they r constructed & form.ed according 2 both the creators & the theoreticians alike..."
Helen says, "Epstein said: "Authors need editors like people with mental illnesses need oppsychiatrists: no-one will read work that's unreadable""
Bill.Cole says, "I can see the definition question creating conflict -- just like the what is hypertext question."
Deena Rhonda and Stephanie shake hands
][mez][ says, "Hi rhonda!! great 2 virtually meat u!:)"
][mez][ stretches her in2 greeting position no 5 [rhonda.coded:)]

Helen says, "MM Bob Coover demoed a hypertext that was navigated via the dcorll bars -- no links. that's not my definition of hypertext I think"
Helen says, "Re definition of literature.... some people are saying that writers like us would be better off in visual arts/ digital arts / design / media arts depts, rather than English/literarure"
Bill.Cole says, "Labelling is interesting and can be useful. But it often manages to be an exercise in erecting fences. *This* is e-lit, but *that* is not."
Helen says, "I was speaking to Bob Kendall about the way they define eliterature for the ELO Directory --"
][mez][ says, "It's difficult 2 assess wot makes up a hypa.txt when the primary de][a][finition is still so broad...not that i'm add.vocating packaged labelling eye.ther....."
Helen says, "It includes sound recordings of peotry for example... is that eliterature? Or just an extension of trad lit?"
][mez][ says, "Ah.greed, B.C."
Bill.Cole says, "I found a pleasing defn of HT in, of all places, an O'Reilly book (Info Architecture for the WWW). It said HT is an organizational scheme, along with hierarchies and databases."
Deena introduces the moo to newbies
Deena Christine says Hi all
Deena says, "Rhonda says she is an information architect and recognizes this "
Helen says, "An organisational scheme for fiction or poetry or whatever... it works, but I think creatively there's more to the definition"
][mez][ says, "Heya christine"
][mez][ says, "Yes helen, agreed, though the notion of complete structure in terms of organ.isation is"
Deena says, "we have heard so many definitions of ht"

No literature
Deena says, "What i found interesting was the aversion to Literature as a term."
Deena says, "Are we lit? if not the Electronic LITERATURE org has to change the name"
runran says, "I used to be a visual artist, i used to be a writer, now i'm a hypersomethingorother ..."
][mez][ says, "As in e.literature a slovenly term in re:gards to the n.clusion of a traditional term cobbled on|in2 a contemp 1?"
elo2 arrives.elo2 says, "Test "Bill.Cole says, "Hi Elo2. Loud and clear."
Helen says, "At trAce we are a WRITING centre -- we do avoid the term literature to avoid elitism, but it depends what you are aiming at -- ELO wants to promote eliterature in a different weway, and the word maybe helps that"
Bill.Cole says, "I think there's -- often justified -- distrust of English/Lit people 'colonizing' new media." runran says, "Good point bill"
Marna_S says, "What I like about hypertext, in general, is that the work doesn't HAVE to fit a word, or words in particular"
Helen says, "As a scientist I find it odd to be lumped in with English Dept people just because I write"
elo2 says, "Hmmmm"
][mez][ says, "wot do u mean by colon.ising B.C?"
Marna_S wonders who elo2 is elo2 says, "Margie is elo2" Marna_S says, "Hi Margie!" ][mez][ says, "Heya margie, hows trix there?;)"
Deena says, "who is surreal guest? what do you do?"
Deena says, "Deena is replaced by chritina for moment"
Bill.Cole says, "Mez, lit types have been accused of taking over other disciplines -- like film -- and forcing their own frameworks on them"
][mez][ says, "This 2 best-fit net.wurk/elit/HT produce in2 acceptably d.fined theory/academe drenched areas is fairly scrappish..."
][mez][ says, "Ahh yes B.C the n.fmaous _discourse_ & everything being _texts_ etc....."

Operating in a pair of dimes
Bill.Cole says, "Right, mez. Now, I'm a 'lit type' myself, and think there can be a value to looking at many things in literary terms. But I understand the objection. Especially since the general conservatism of academic disciplines tends to stifle new approaches to anything."
][mez][ says, "Yup, spot.on.B.C."
elo2 says, "mez, wish you were here!" elo2 says, "You have been much the subject here!"
][mez][ goes 4 her 2nd b.lush;
elo2 says, "Yes indeed, the whole set of issues are being disucssed that your work involves"
][mez][ says, "X.cellent margie, thats 1 of the reasons y i create wot i do....the discussion/formulation carry-ova...."
][mez][ says, "Yes B>C, have had simi][an[lar x.periences here as do u deal with that manifest conservatism when it con.fronts u?"
Marna_S says, "There is something to be said for operating within a paradigm"
Bill.Cole says, "Well, some of that is from recent experience being frustrated by one such conservative dept."
][mez][ says, "Thx margie...hope.fulli my wurks have pro.voked some n.teresting disc.ussion......"
][mez][ says, "Marna, can u e.laborate on that?"
elo2 says, ""Marna, are we really operating in a paradigm? what does that mean?"

Getting to the outside
Bill.Cole says, "My reaction was to quit my job. Not exactly constructive, I fear."
Marna_S says, "I don't think we are operating in a paradigm, per se"
elo2 says, "Bill, we had a great discussion about how the university can play a role in elit--alan Liu has a wonderful new toy that will categorize works for students and help you get back to the paths and links you want to teach for a hypertext elit work"
Marna_S says, "For "Us" it's more like a context"
Helen says, "Bill that was radical!"
elo2 says, "wonders why bill quit his job, thinks she missed somethign..."
][mez][ says, "w.o.w...that's a big, add.mirable leap B.C:) "
elo2 Comforts bill and hopes he gets in on a better place
Helen says, "My mother always taught me -- to be subversive from the indie..."
Helen says, "Inside"
elo2 Gets helen a race car so she can race the Indie 500
elo2 from the inside
Helen says, "They won't listen to us if we're outside the universites, we have to get in there somehow and work from within"
Marna_S says, "B/c there is all kinds of tech development and media experimentation occuring. It's an exciting time"
][mez][ says, "Eheh"
Bill.Cole says, "Well, it was a longer and more complicated story than that, and things are OK at the moment. "
Helen says, "Whereabouts are you Bill?"
Bill.Cole says, "I'm in Columbus OH, Helen. Guess what university it was ;)"
][mez][ says, "Margie that alan lui toy sounds n.teresting, is it accessible via the web?"
elo2 Deena and Helen are complaining in real life and dramatizing that the outreach to the world in these chats is being pushed to the outside as everyone has fled for lunch
Helen says, "Marna, that sounds positive, tell us more?"
elo2 says, "They are not listening to people on the outside, that is FOR SURE helen!"
elo2 Cheers helen and bill and Marna and mez and randy and all of us on the outside
runran says, "I try very hard to create work that can be enjoyed by non-writers, non-artists, non-academics ..."
][mez][ says, "U suceed 2, runran, its 1 of the many things i admire about yr work & yr work practice][s][..."
elo2 shifts and shimmers in transcending identities

Deena says, "Yells out As a funder, I am wondering how you can reach your work to a wider audience?"
Bill.Cole says, "I agree that unis CAN play a role. But you need some really visionary people who are willing to take chances. Too many academics are concerned with keeping a low profile until tenure. "
][mez][ says, "Dittoh margie;)"
elo2 says, "Mez, I wish we could get a grant structure in place for that ratified financial gain"
][mez][ says, "Me 2!!"

Our own time
elo2 says, "Mez, what is the role of unis in australia in digital media and lit?"
elo2 says, "ELo2 is deena now, actually"
elo2 says, "There are a lot of cool visionaries here, Bill. I wish you were here to talk with Alan, and Noah is doing some neat stuff at Brown."
Helen says, "But Alan Liu was saying, he had to create the Voice of the Shuttle on his own time, on top of teaching work and "Real" research."

elo2 says, "Stuart and Nancy are starting a new media department at University of Maryland"
Bill.Cole says, "Stuart and Nancy's program is VERY cool. I talked with them about it in Aarhus last summer."
elo2 says, "Bill, do you know Rich Higgason who is also in Ohio?"
Bill.Cole says, "No, Margie. Don't know Rich. What department is he in?"
Helen says, "Yet at least elit / new media is on the agenda in the US - in the UK it isn't taught anywhere at all"
elo2 says, "Yes, helen, exactly, all of us visionaries are on our own time..."

On the margins
][mez][ says, "Margie>>the fact of digital/net.wurking parameters?realities is starting 2 filter down in the academic system, but its a s.l.o.w go, & those who r pushing 4 it r often marginalised..."
elo2 says, "Mez, how are they marginalized in Aus?"
Marna_S says, "At some point we will probably (hopefully?) come to a place where there is a means of expression that just works AMAZINGLY well. Then people will probably begin to create content within that paradigm for a while. It's happened with different forms of media, as well as styles within those media. and it will happen again and again"

bbly arrives. elo2 hugs bill bly. This is deena elo2 says, "Bill, introduce yourself for the record, if you would--I have your cd here, was bringing it for you to sign.."
bbly says, "Hi, bbly here, thanks for the invite"
elo2 says, "What is interesting here in real life is that we have the old gang here and a lot of new faces as well. But it is hard to get the two together. "I think we see each other so rarely, and we have to talk so we inadvertantly shut out the new would be visionaries. Sue Thomas said that at Incubation, they mix up the tables for lunch so you HAVe to sit with someone you don't know...Wish that were the case here."
Helen says, "Yes we could do with something ACTIVE to get the groups mixing"
Marna_S says, "That's unfortunate"
elo2 says, "But the panels do help present what these visionaries are doing"

Teaching content and winning paradigms
][mez][ says, "Margie>> those who r trying 2 establish actual teaching content in such a way as 2 reflect the growing genres that make up so-termed _new media_ find it difficult 2 have established as a wurkable teachable arena without subsumed in2 previous maintained areas [lit/design etc]..."
Helen says, "Marna do you have any prediction about what paradigm might win out?"
elo2 says, "Mez, how are australian unis carving out space for other growing genres and other interdisciplinary areas like computer physics, etc.?"

New faces
elo2 says, "Yes, all, how do we get new faces to get into the field?"
elo2 says, "What is in it for them?"
Helen says, "I was talking to a couple of young things in the coffee shop last night -- they are bright and capable, and did a degree in interactive multimedia and want to do new media writing -- but how can we encourage them what to do next when they have to also make a living?"
elo2 says, "Bill, we have had a great talk here at ELO about the place of electronic lit and media in universities. But it boils down to visionaries like Loss and Alan Liu spending huge amounts of time on the edges and then finally getting recognized"
Marna_S says, "I think that one paradigm that has won out, in the sense that it seems to be used more and more often, is the hyperlink fiction. A la the Unknown"
Helen says, "Yes Marna, hypertext like that is liked around here"
elo2 says, "Funny, Marna, folks here have been characterizing heavily linked text as the first age of hypertext and now we are in the second with images, sound, etc taking center stage. "
][mez][ says, "Thru research leanings, mostly...there is a restructure push @ present that has unis c][g][lamo.ring 2 realign with the gnu business/eco rationalism d.fined educative sux, truly....there is no place here for code.wurk teaching niches as it isn't proven 2 hold any type of ratified financial gain [which is y it is so often lumped in2 design or lit]..."
Helen says, "Flash Poetry was another one Rita Raley mentioned -- that's going to stick around"
elo2 says, "Not sure I agree with that myself, I think there is a lot more involved in linking."
Marna_S says, "I think that the "First age" format is alot more accessible as far as "Joe public" wanting to become "Joe creator"

Playing games
Bill.Cole says, "The 'ludology'/Game Studies movement (Aarseth et al.) is also gaining some steam."
][mez][ says, "Can u tell us more about that B.C?[n.terested]"
Bill.Cole says, "I don't know that much about it. But Espen Aarseth at Bergen is involved. It seems to have emerged from the Digital Arts and Culture conferences he organized. Now there is a and some other stuff. "
Helen says, ""Helen is now both Helen and Julianne Chatelain - sorry we don't have more machines here and are sharing.""
elo2 says, "Deena is watching someone go through e:electron so is distractified"
Marna_S says, "welcome Julianne" ][mez][ says, "How.d Julianne"
Helen says, "Speaking of gamestudies, Julianne also recommends Gonzalo Frasca's"
Bill.Cole says, "Although, Helen, video games predate traditional node-link HTs by a good margin. "
Helen says, "][mez][ it's an honor!!"
][mez][ says, " r doing some great stuff around games & theory...."
][mez][ says, "Thx julianne! same here! tell us a bit about yrself..."

Flash in the pan
elo2 says, "One of the interesting threads was obsolences--art is obsloete in 3-5 years. Flash and other corporate stuff---will that still be here? We need to distinguish between obsolete and unreadable because the computer is gone and flash is gone"
elo2 says, ""
][mez][ says, "Ooh margie, big qs ..."
elo2 says, "But one of the suggested criteria was to judge on how works USE the technology available"
Bill.Cole says, "Old computer formats CAN be kept current. Take the MAME application, which plays old arcdae games on new personal computers. (Go, Robotron!)"
Bill.Cole says, "Some hacker could probably put together an emulator -- if there was interest. "
Helen says, "Julianne's gossip from NKHayles' keynote yesterday: Kate suggested critics should evaluate a work in terms of its original platform and not diss older works simply because their platforms are old. she specifically didn't mention the d-d dissing of BBly's We Descend but I thought it was a subtext and I wanted to tell you about it Bill.."
elo2 Nothing is off topic, Deena yells back at Juliane who is yelling at Helen that it is off color that oh maybe this is in Deena's vivid imagination
elo2 i-mage -in A tion
runran says, "The flash player plugin will one day be on same shelf as the 8 track cassette player ... reminds me of the polish artist [forget his name] who did chalk drawings ... he timed himself with a stop watch ... then erased the drawing and announced how long his art lasted ..."
][mez][ says, "Runran its a bit like andy goldsworthy & his art production/processes...."
elo2 says, "Mez, can you give the URLs and info on Andy Goldsworthy?"
Helen says, "Helen says Sue Thomas has all the info on Andy if you need it."
][mez][ says, "Nope sorry deena, he's a well-known sculptor...realtime based... "
][mez][ says, "Eheheh"
elo2 too and has a nother drink on realtime sculptures

Conference calls
elo2 says, "Mez, all, how can we get more visionaries and more finances? How do we get people more involved?"
Marna_S says, "Being a grad student, I would like to suggest, on behalf of all students, a scholarship/fellowship for attending conferences"
elo2 says, "ELO 2 is still Deena"
Helen says, "Hello Marna I think that idea is thrilling"
][mez][ says, "I'm not really sure how 2 n.courage a more visionary-based approach in terms of would take a radical realignment of cultural standards etc....."
elo2 says, "Jaishree says hi to all you out there in unreal internet land"
elo2 says, "Yes, we should be able to do that and have people paid for giving papers..."
][mez][ says, "Oops sorry thought elo2 was margie [3rd b.lush 4 2day;0]"
elo2 says, "BIll, what about intermedia and other dead works?"
][mez][ says, "How.D jaishree"
elo2 changes herself in shimmering identities which are completely unreadable and may be obsolete
][mez][ says, ":)"
Marna_S says, "I think so, too. But what can we do to make that happen? Suggest elo or other orgs include that in their grant proposals?"
][mez][ says, "Marna, i'd go 4 the x.tebded use of the actually medium in2 the creation of conferences on an infrastructural lvl...get virtual conferences happening!!"
][mez][ says, "Oops rewire that last sentence in2 "X.tended use of the actual medium"...[dang fingers] "
elo2 says, "Yes, we need to suggest it in grant proposals. but maybe this goes back to the marginlizing questions--how do e get this in the forefront so it IS funded?"
Marna_S says, "That's a great idea, mez"
elo2 Julianne claps
elo2 Deena runs aroound pouring coffe in everyone's ears
The housekeeper arrives to remove bbly. elo2 says, "We lost Bill\"
elo2 says, "Mez, how would htat work practically? How can we embed the medium in the practice?"
elo2 Hands round medium sized practice sessions and more coffee for all

Cohesive irons
Helen says, "& ][mez]['s work was a big part of NKH's talk too - but you probably knew that : ))"
elo2 says, "I don't see any type"
elo2 says, "Are we offline?"
elo2 is offline and working on offsleep
Marna_S is appreciating the hot coffee in cold upstate NY
Helen says, "No"
][mez][ says, "By actually n.couraging the use of the medium as a cohesive n.viron, not 1 marginalised in the background [a bit like this] as an off-shoot of realtime functioning....that's y i c so many of the practical problems arising there, such as cohesion around physically-based standards [pre-set personas etc]... "
elo2 says, "Kate just came in and claps for Mez"
elo2 Kate Hayles claps for MEZ
][mez][ b.lushes again;0
][mez][ says, "Thx kate, and thx 4 the n.clusion..."
elo2 says, "Kate thanks mez"
][mez][ says, "..& thx 2 u kate!!i'd luv a copy of the transcript of yr keynote...."
][mez][ says, ".if there is 1 that is;)"

Electronic death and embedding
elo2 says, "Margie is not sure how this works in the virtual world and wants to know if she should die, would deena die too?"
Marna_S says, "Hi Kate! Wish I could have heard your keynote."
elo2 says, "Margie is right here sleeping beside me"
Bill.Cole says, "On embedding the medium: partly be not being afraid or apologetic about using it. E.g., in writing classes, many teachers are afraid of assigning web page assignments because it's 'too advanced.' Yet I know basic/remdial writing teachers who do it all the time with great success. We can be too protective of our students."
][mez][ says, "Depends on yr definition of it ego based or lectronically fixated?"
Helen says, "More gossip: tension felt between people whose work is mostly page focused and those whose work is performative and time based (Cayley, Montfort) - the latter doing a good job of holding up their point of view."
][mez][ says, ":)"
elo2 says, "Yeah there is an undercurrent here that text is somehow obsolete, which bothers me..."
][mez][ says, "Helen, yup, i can m.magine that ][wo][manifest][er][ing..."
elo2 says, "How do we embed the medium in writing teachers?"
Helen says, "Deena yells out OH GOD I DIDN'T MEAN THAT"
Bill.Cole agrees with elo2.
elo2 Does not want to physically embed the medium in the teacher, she just wants to embed it in the teaching and oh never mind
Helen says, "The really erudite stuff coming from "Helen" is Julianne...."
][mez][ says, "Eheh deena...yr cute when yr a tad pished;0)"
elo2 thinks that she is not just a tad pished, but pushed pished over the edge...
elo2 needs sleep more than any lovely elit theory
elo2 Thinks Julianne and Helen make great real time collaborators
][mez][ says, "Oops sorry i meant julianne;)"
elo2 says, "WEll, the time has flown..."
elo2 Deena throws around more flying clocks than anyone needs
Helen says, "DEATH = 'publishing' - that's why I was unable to finish any work until I thought I was dying. (I am dying but I still don't know when but somehow I can finish work now - will write you all offline - thanks Helen and all"
Bill.Cole ducks for cover.
elo2 covers bill with flying clocks and minutes
Bill.Cole says, "Ouch."
elo2 But wonders about Julianne's dying and vows to talk to her about that.

elo2 says, "This wasn't a fair representation of the conference, but there are so many issues to cover (not I sue, mez, issues..?"
elo2 Calls for last thoughts and pushes the obligatory parting round of Genius/Guinness
Marna_S says, "I think that web literacy will become more and more frequent until it is a necessary component of writing classes"
Bill.Cole says, "Of course, Marna. But it can be tough to wait for evolutionary change. And it can be tough to keep going back to square one in arguing for any deviation from traditional forms."
elo2 says, "Marna, I agree! we need to necessify the medium!"
Bill.Cole is sorry to sound so cynical, but he's had some bad experiences....

][mez][ says, "I'm just glad u ran this deena, it's more than necessary....thanks 4 taking the time & big a big phat How.D 2 all there...."
][mez][ says, "Ahh, well have a drink or 2, u d.serve it;)"
Helen says, "OK ][mez][ looking forward to it"
Helen says, "I'm just dying like we all all are!! not to worry"
][mez][ says, "Opps GIVE a big phat hello, obviously..."
Helen says, "Is your email working again mez?"
elo2 says, "Wes just waltzed in and says hi to bill, marna, mez and hugs everyone"
][mez][ says, "Doesn't matter, i want u 2 contact me julianne if that's ok....u're a mez-wave.lengther by the timbre of it....;)"
Helen says, "we should stop -- we haven't left this airless place and have three more panels this afternoon....."
elo2 says, "The real lifers go away for the next session."
elo2 says, "Thank you ALL so much for coming!"
elo2 says, "We will have more online conferences!"
Bill.Cole says, "Hi, Wes"
Helen says, "Bill -- would love tot alk with your someother time.. (Helen)"
][mez][ says, "Yes helen, should be ok now [email that is]..."
Marna_S says, "Let's talk more, Bill"
Helen says, "Bye all..."
Marna_S says, "Thank you to the rl'ers who made time to fill us in a little!"
][mez][ .wavs good.bye 2 all n sun.dr][ied][y
Bill.Cole says, "I'd love to continue the conversations off-line. My email is And I will be at HT02 in College Park this summer."
Marna_S says, "Have a great rest of conference!"
][mez][ thxs all
Bill.Cole says, "It's been fun, everybody."
Helen says, "And everyone come to Incubation2 as well!"
runran says, "Have a great dinner"
Helen says, "!5-17th July in Nottingham UK -- continue the discussion"

Do you like this stuff?
runran says, "Do you enjoy hypertext/hyperficyion/hypermedia?"
Marna_S says, "Immensely. I think that there's something very potentially intoxicating about the medium"
Marna_S says, "In creation, as well as utility"
runran says, "And quite addictive, once one gets going, i can barely find my pen anymore ;-)"
Marna_S says, "It's just often difficult to tell whether one's idea (ie, my idea) is good enough, worth pursuing"
runran says, "That's something all artists face"
Marna_S says, "As difficult as it is to stop, it is as difficult, sometimes, to start"
Marna_S says, "Yeah. How do you face it? "
runran says, "The difficulty, for traditional artists, is learning to program, which is becoming more and more necessary"
runran says, "I was a writer and a visual artist and found a reluctance on the part of granting agencies and editors to accept that i could do both, so the web is a godsend"
Marna_S says, "That's true!"

Taking off
][mez][ says, "B.C x.pect n email from me;)"
Helen says, "Bye "
Bill.Cole says, "Ciao, belli!"
][mez][ says, "N.deed Helen:)"
][mez][ says, "Take care all;)"
Helen says, "Kate Pullinger is here to take over from me..."
Bill.Cole says, "Sure, mez. loooking forward."
runran says, "Hello kate"
Helen says, "Hi Randy."
Helen says, "It's cool and cloudy in LA."
][mez][ has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove ][mez][.
runran says, "Here too"
Helen says, ""Anything interesting in this MOO?""
runran says, "I think everyone is leaving now"
Marna_S says, "It's sunny here in Troy, but I am freezing"
Helen says, ""I guess so. Oh well. I'll send you a mail from the UK next week. Bye Randy.""
Marna_S says, "what are your impressions from the conference?"
Helen says, "ACTION Kate waves good-bye/"
elo2 has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove elo2.
runran says, "I see you logged into the course"
runran says, "Oops, she's gone"
Helen says, ""Which course?""
Marna_S shrugs
runran says, "The tutorial space"
Helen says, ""Nope, not me!!""
Helen says, "Maybe Catherine Gillam was checking it out or something?"
runran says, "Yes, i guess so"
runran says, "Sorry marna, we're doing idle chit chat"
Helen says, ""Everybody is gone, so I really will say bye.""
Helen has disconnected.
runran says, "That's it marna, just us left"
Marna_S says, "Where are you? What do you do?"
runran says, "I'm on vancouver island, i teach basic web design for the trAce writing school ... and i am a web artist [i guess]"
runran says, "Http://"
Marna_S says, "Neat. I am at RPI, working on an MFA in electronic arts. Still filling the basics, though"
runran says, "what is your focus re:electronic arts"
Marna_S says, "If I had to say one, it's prob'ly be word-related"
The housekeeper arrives to cart Helen off to bed.
Marna_S says, "Text"
Marna_S shrugs
Marna_S resigning to prospect of imminent departure
Marna_S says, "Nice talking with you"
runran says, "Bye marna"


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