Deena passes out hypertext pretzels that turn in on themselves

Arun says, "Hi, why not organize an online *Virtual* conference for the Hypertext Community.."

Michael [to Deena]: thanks Deena

CyberSpik quietly enters. Uh-oh! Who let CyberSpik in!?!

Deena says, "Arun, how would the virtual conference work?"

Julianne says, "Arun, that's a great idea - that's kind of what this is. Deena runs this chat every other week."

CarlaJ appears, but she'll leave the choirs of angels and flashes of blue light to her MOO friends.

Julianne says, "Welcome CyberSpik and Carla!"

CarlaJ waves

CyberSpik waves.

Julianne says, "We're talking about hypertext 00 (the conference) and hypertext in general..."

CarlaJ nods

Deena says, "Lots of people at the Penn Writers Group said they didn't want to read on the screen. Period. The problems still remain--how do we tell readers about hypertext? And convince them that it is a fun and interesting art form?"

Arun says, "Hi Deena, by Virtual conference, I mean to organize a meting like this."

Deena says, "How do we get readers, writers, and after we get them, how do we publicize the works?" CarlaJ says, "and not simply "experimental"..."

rjnagle says, "I should mention that smug.com is one of my favorite sites. Great writing, but really inscrutable front page. Oh, my, I don't want to bore you with my own web surfing."

Julianne says, "Arun, do you mean more like Webzine 2000, which has a strong virtual component?"

Michael says, "I'm interested in teaching a course in hypertext fiction at Duke's continuing ed dept. I used to teach fiction writing there. I think they'll go for it, but I'll have to do it in baby steps--ie., can't jump right into writing. I'd be interested in people's thoughts about how to intro students to hypertext writing."

Arun says, "Yes, Julianne"

CyberSpik says, "start with the software then work on the theory"

rjnagle says, "So are the majority of people going to this conference teachers or miscellaneous?"

Jim_R has disconnected. The housekeeper arrives to remove Jim_R.

CyberSpik says, "teach them html the first day then give them time to play with it"

Arun says, "Hi Deena & Julianne, Is Michael Joyce and George Landow are also visiting ht'00"

Deena says, "Baby steps are good. RNagle, we did a chat last Saturday on hypertext teaching. The archive is at http://www.eliterature.org and click on community."

Julianne says, "Cool Arun. Another "virtual conference" that works pretty well is the online aspect of Burning Man. "

Deena says, "There were some great ideas on how to teach it."

Michael [to CyberSpik]: Meaning, get them interested in playing with the toys first? Probably a good approach.

Julianne says, "Arun, I'm not sure whether they're coming. Prof. Landow was in Spain last time I heard."

Deena says, "Julianne, how does the online aspect of Burning man work? Note, we did a chat on burning man, and that is in the archive too. Lots of good ideas, including one where we have a hypertext burning man where people justs come to write ht for a week."

CyberSpik [to Michael]: also to let the phobic ones have time to acclimate themselves to a new technology.

Arun says, "Okay, Julianne!"

Julianne says, "Burning Man: lots of the people At the event post pictures and commentary in real time, and invite people to e-mail them and post comments. I've really enjoyed that aspect of it even though I couldn't attend."

Arun says, "Dear Deena, It would be great to see here, later "

Deena says, "CyberSpik, can you talk more about the software?"

Deena says, "Arun, I'm sorry. What would be great to see here?"

Michael [to Deena]: Yes, I meant to log in for the chat on teaching. I'll go back and read the archive."

Arun says, "Prof. Richard Lanham, Prof. Katherine Hayles and Prof. Janet Murray"

Deena says, "We are having a chat with Janet Murray in September. Check out the list of upcoming chats at eliterature."

CyberSpik says, "I meant html composers but I suppose the various media softwares should be covered too"

Deena says, "Yes, we need software that can mirror how people think and use relationships."

Arun says, "Okay, Deena."

Michael says, "So what do you prefer in html editors? I've yet to use Dreamweaver."

CyberSpik says, "I took a course , writing in cyberspace and some of the computer novices had trouble with new software"

Deena says, "Which software do they use?"

Julianne says, "As a usability freak, I agree w/ CyberSpik that sometimes the tools totally get in the way."

Deena says, "I like Dreamweaver, but we still need something that has n dimensional links, layers and levels, and dynamic relationships."

rjnagle says, "Dreamweaver is quite popular in eastern Europe. That's because the software is pirated and nobody has to pay hundreds of dollars for a fancy graphics program."

Deena Sighs for her dream software

Arun says, "Yes, I have the e-mail address of Prof. Richard Lanham"

Michael says, "Deena, could you elaborate on what you mean about software and relationships?"

Julianne says, "Michael I'm currently using HomeSite, and I agree with Deena's issues about what plain ol' html doesn't have - we should tell them about Rob Kendall's connection system for examples of extensions"

Arun says, "Here is his address Lanhamrich@aol.com "

Deena says, "Well, I want a software that shows not only links but proximity relationships--this space is closer to that space, this space is under that space, etc. So that I can see the structure. I do this crudely on the web with graphics and image maps now..."

CyberSpik says, "I agree with all about the limitations of html"

Deena says, "Thanks ARun, I will invite him to a chat."

Julianne says, "Michael, I am glad you are coming. I learned a lot from Hyperizons (clever name), should we put the URL up?"

Julianne says, "Hyperizons is at http://www.duke.edu/~mshumate/hyperfic.html"

Michael says, "Yes, I agree about html. I've been interested in exploring Rob's connection tools, but have been away from hypertext writing for a couple of years."

Deena says, "What do you guys see happening in hypertext in the next 5 years?"

CarlaJ waves.

Julianne says, "Also, Deena, correct me if I'm wrong, but your work really takes advantage of multivalent (one to many) links as in Storyspace, and you need that on the web?"

Michael says, "Thanks for putting that up there (although I'm rather embarrassed about all its cobwebs)."

CarlaJ tiptoes out. CarlaJ goes home.

CyberSpik says, "uhm it collapses into cable tv?"

CyberSpik says, "digital video"

Julianne says, "Oh nooooo"

Deena says, "Right Julianne. I want to name links, have more than one link from one word to many different spaces, etc."

CyberSpik says, "the next gen of wysiwyg composers"

Deena Laughs and starts to count her pennies for a tv

Julianne says, "I want us to solve the problem of how to make hypertext a liquid we can swim in - or drown - at least as "hot" and engaging as TV but more interactive"

Deena says, "The Hypertext community seems to be polarized around academics on one side and wild eyed artists on the other. How do we get these groups to communicate?"

Michael says, "I certainly like Storyspace's capability for naming links and pathways. I finally bought it about 6 months ago and am still learning it."

Deena passes around nice cups of hot chocolate hypertexts

CyberSpik has disconnected.

rjnagle says, "Perhaps the only thing really great about the browser experience is real time chat and elimination of physical distance. I actually was thinking of making some sort of role-playing educational game (and I still plan to someday I hope). I tend to compare today's possibilities to the possibilities opened up by Dungeons and Dungeons (and no, I'm not a D & D nut). But it was the first time I encountered collaborative adventures."

Deena says, "yes, how can we marry the games with hypertext?"

Arun says, "Hi everybody, please try this URL of Prof. Richard Lanham work at http://www.rhetoricainc.com "

Michael says, "I'm not sure that wild-eyed artists and academics ever communicate that much, even though they're in each others' midst!"

Deena says, "Yet we need to do this to work together. The programmers CAN make what we need--but wild eyed artists never have the $ to pay for it."

Deena says, "We keep going over and over the same ground, but there HAS to be a way"

Deena watches as a horde of wild eyed artists come in and run around in circles, yelling war whoops

Julianne says, "One of my ideas is to write a grant to get some copies of Vignette and other large scale stuff like that, and see what we can do with that artistically..."

Deena says, "Great idea Julianne, maybe we can all get that grant together..."

rjnagle says, "The more basic question is: how can a story not become antiquated by the technology running it? Dostoevsky's books don't go out of date, but a video game looks really quaint after about 3 years. There are exceptions. I was wondering if anybody here has really explored computer games. I might mention "Grim Fandango" as an interactive game that is very well-scripted. The only problem is that these are group projects and require a lot of capitol. A Dostoevsky novel, on the other hand, just requires a typewriter, paper and lots of time."

Michael says, "I lost track of what exactly we were looking at on Lanham's site."

Julianne says, "Yes, Arun what do you recommend?"

Deena says, "Yep. I am doing an art piece for Marble Springs, all about how the computer that it runs on is now an impossible-to-get antique..."

Arun says, "Also, we can invite Prof. David Kolb --great hypertext philosopher --who wrote Socrates in the Labyrinth--"

Julianne says, "I agree Arun, I like Prof. Kolb's work, tell us about your work and your role in this community"

The housekeeper arrives to cart CyberSpik off to bed.

Deena says, "It took Dostoevsky a long time to get the ideas and to write his novels. Yet we are expected to *change* novels and ideas with the six month life of the software. How do we reconcile literary time with Internet time?"

Michael says, "I'm not sure that the comparison to the novel is the most apt. How about early cinema instead? I love early film, but you have to watch it keeping in mind how quickly the technology changed."

Deena says, "Yes, and it is great to see how people *experimented* in the old days of film and tv"

Deena Puts up a screen with the Ernie Kovack's show so all can see the crazy tv angles and have fun.

Arun says, "My role to the Hypertext community is giving support!"

Deena claps in appreciation for all the support.

Arun says, "In terms of research findings.."

Michael says, "Exactly. I think Buster Keaton went to work every day wondering how much further he could take the technology (in a way that I think Chaplin didn't--he was perhaps more married to the stage?)"

Arun says, "BTW, I am currently enjoying Othermindedness!"

rjnagle says, "but a lot of these experiments didn't really live very long. Look at the 1925 "Napoleon" film by Abel Gance. That's a notable exception, but I've afraid that any art form wedded to technology becomes very quaint-looking after a while."

Michael [to Arun]: what is Othermindedness?

Arun says, "Hey guys, you dunno know, the latest hypertext fiction by Prof. Michael Joyce."

Julianne says, "Robert, I've seen Gance's Napoleon (that time Carmine Coppola conducted the live music) and really liked it but I take your larger point - art wedded too closely to technology dates so quickly..."

Michael says, "Well, that's a good point in more ways than one. Since I work in an archival library, the longevity of digital works is becoming an issue very quickly. Not just the software going out of date, but the actual material deteriorating, just like early film."

Julianne says, "Arun, got it, Othermindedness by Joyce. I haven't seen it! Will check it out. Does anyone know the answer to Arun's question, will Prof Joyce be at HT00? He's started going to those Digital Arts & Culture things, that's where I saw him last (Atlanta)"

Deena says, "Arun, what is the latest Joyce fiction?"

rjnagle says, "perhaps critics of later centuries will look at this time as one of transitional technology. What an exciting time to be in"

Arun says, "Hello everybody, what is the meaning of WEB of Paradox?"

Deena says, "Yes, how do we keep the transitional technology alive? And how do we get the media to settle in as flexible and as exciting a position as possible?"

Arun says, "To Deena: Othermindedness: The Emergence of Network Culture"

Julianne says, "One thing I think we can see from the web. Anything that "works" spreads like wildfire - can't control it. I still get chills...imagine the first time someone used page numbers and everybody copied him or her..."

Julianne says, "I agree with Robert that this is an exciting time to be watching this area."

Deena says, "Arun, can you give the URL for othermindedness?"

Michael says, "Page numbers! How about paragraphing?"

Arun says, "Okay, Deena :-)"

Julianne says, "You're so right Michael. "

rjnagle says, "or the I love you virus or e-mail hoaxes. About e-mail hoaxes, they are kinds of masterpieces which replicate themselves rapidly."

Deena says, "Yes, now we have conventions for linking and for structure. Maybe we should do a hypertext virus"

Julianne says, "Yeah - links "have to be" blue - I'm not sure I'm happy with that convention but we do have it."

Deena Gets out her e-mail chemistry set and starts to work.. Deena says, "Yes, some of the conventions don't always work. How do we "prevent" bad conventions?"

Arun says, "Okay http://www.eastgate.com/catalog/OtherMindedness.html"

Michael says, "Now about this hypertext virus ... it would cause URLs to pop up on your screen? FORCE people to read literary hypertext? I think you may have something, Deena."

Julianne says, "Yes Deena, once we get "it" it will be contagious. (next subject) it's hard to prevent bad conventions except by out-competing them (natural selection)"

Deena happily fantasizes about millions of people held hostage by their computers and forced to read hypertext..

rjnagle says, "right now, attention spans are short on the web. We flit around like butterflies, and certainly hypertext goes counter to that. When there is a way to involve the reader/viewer/perceiver, then hypertext can take off."

Arun says, "Thanks, Julianne for your explanation about WEB of PARADOX."

Julianne waves hurrah

Deena says, "How do we involve the reader when attention spans are so short?"

rjnagle says, "clarification: reading a novel requires heavy involvement and concentration. Surfing the web requires little commitment or time. Have you ever stayed at a site for more than 15 minutes?" "

rjnagle says, "answer to Deena:"

Arun says, "Oh, Julianne, then I missed it!"

Deena has to admit that she rarely stays that long, even for a hypertext. Hangs her head in shame as she recalls spending many hours with books...

Arun says, "OR I have overseen it!"

rjnagle says, "sorry begin again (typo). I will start over."

Michael says, "I'm going to have to go now, but I look forward to seeing everyone on Tuesday. When exactly do we need to show up? I'm not in the hotel but will be staying with my wife's family in town."

Deena says, "The workshop starts at 8 on Tuesday morning. See you then!"

Julianne says, "See you there Michael! I'll be registering Wednesday morning..."

Arun says, "bye Michael!"

Michael says, "See you there. 8, huh? BTW, should I bring a laptop?"

Julianne says, "Got it Arun, thank you!"

Deena says, "Yes, please bring any equipment you can :)"

Arun says, "Thanks, Deena :-)"

Michael has disconnected. The housekeeper arrives to remove Michael.

Arun says, "Okay Deena!"

Deena says, "What practical steps can we take to get people involved in this media?"

rjnagle says, "Let me clarify my thought. When characters (both real and automatic) can continue the adventure, perhaps that can involve a reader for longer periods of time. But gosh, chat requires a lot of energy and typing speed. I can't sustain it for very long. I think we should think of ourselves as gamemeisters and think of how can we keep somebody playing the game? Maintaining reader/viewer interest is the crux of hypertext."

Julianne says, "Yes, the game approach needs to be blended in."

Deena says, "Yes, we talked with Andrew Stern, who had great plans for creating intelligent characters."

Arun says, "What are intelligent characters in hypertext?"

Deena says, "Yet the gaming industry is thinking, OK let's have four of five things people can do, resolve the scene so they "win" and go on to the next level. This is VERY limiting!"

Julianne says, "If we could get all the tech writers in the world to rise up and ..."

Deena says, "Arun, Andrew is going to use artificial intelligence so the characters grow as you interact with them"

Julianne says, "Arun, they're characters that use AI to some extent to "learn" and "grow" - more in the chat archives."

Arun says, "Okay AI, Alan Turing philosophy!"

rjnagle says, "my guesses. Real players stay in the game and create pressure for others to stay in. Also, technology can involve less efforts on the viewer (speech rather than typing, for example), "

rjnagle says, "(continued) and that makes it easier for people to stay actively engaged for longer periods of time." "

Arun says, "But, in my view there will be implications in the cultural value of hypertext by using AI in hypertext!"

Julianne says, "My guess: a feedback loop so the users feel powerful - their choices have "real" meaning, not just discovering a pre-set story/maze - that feeling of potency rewards them and draws them in. Not sure AI is necessary for this even - maybe just intense amounts of computing power and millions of monkeys typing for zillions of years - "

Arun shares a URL for his Global Education Project at http://www.angelfire.com/ks/learning/

rjnagle says, "I don't know about characters growing. I would like to see that happen. But the writer can create scenarios and pose limited choices to the reader/viewer. With too many choices, the reader/viewer just can't work through the story. And the artist can't create a satisfactory experience for the reader. On the other hand, it may be that the reader is controlling whether the virtual adventure is "worth saving" . "

Julianne says, "Arun, this is GREAT!!"

Arun says, "Thanks, Julianne this is my personal site!"

Deena says, "So we need to get an intermediate ground, where artists can create a few scenes that the reader can work through?"

Arun says, "Actually, main research area is also ITS!"

Julianne says, "Arun, I can see you also are a Red Rock Eater fan - very interesting problems Phil passes along - I will check out these other links!"

rjnagle says, "great site. I'll check it out later." "

Julianne says, "What is ITS..information technology and society?"

Arun says, "ITS is Intelligent Tutoring Systems"

Deena says, "Rjnagle, have you seen many of these kinds of hypertexts?"

Arun says, "Yes, Julianne --Phil Agre is one of most prolific writers on the Net :-)"

Deena says, "Can we get the net writers to write hypertexts?"

Julianne says, "Arun, isn't it interesting how he leverages all the people who send him stuff - ah, Intelligent Tutoring! Sounds much more fun than "performance support" which doesn't usually have AI..."

Deena says, "Hypertexts should also leverage reader contributions like this!"

rjnagle says, "Perhaps the artist will cease to exist. And the player creates the territory and drama. I'm not familiar with MOOs, but it's interesting how all players have the ability to create their own scenery. And very liberating. Perhaps the "playing process" is the creative process than the "preconception" of the scenario. I don't know. I'm just rambling. The bad part about this chat is that while writing you can't read what others are saying."

Julianne says, "Arun I totally agree with you about decentralization, diversity, multiplicity of viewpoints..."

Arun says, "Well, Julianne --Phil Agre manages good!"

Deena says, "true enough. That makes it difficult to keep the thoughts going."

Deena says, "But the Moos may well hold the key to truly interactive hypertext works" rjnagle says, "pardon my ignorance, but who is Phil Agre?"

Julianne says, "Robert, a good though dated book about Moos is My Tiny Life by Julian Dibbell (no relation)"

Deena says, "Maybe our entire culture will converge on creating multiple viewpoints and we will see hypertext as a way of life and of thinking"

Arun says, "Well, regarding MOOS, we can also invite Sherry Turkle someday.."

Deena is lot in a future world reverie

Deena says, "Who is Sherry Turkle, and do you have her e-mail address?"

Arun says, "Deena: She is a terrific lady at MIT!"

Deena thinks that everyone with similar names must be related somehow. Tosses Julianne the first name drop award of the evening.

rjnagle says, "Truckle, she teaches at MIT. Instructional technology I believe. A nay sayer about virtual learning."

Julianne says, "Phil runs a news service - he's a UCLA professor - I think you would like his newsletter. Here's the URL for subbing...Rock Eater news service is at http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/rre.html"

Arun says, "Yes, I have her e-mail address."

Deena says, "Please send me her e-mail address. Thanks :)"

Julianne says, "You guys these are great resources. I feel a thousand times smarter now (and I have a lot of reading to catch up on)..."

Arun says, "To Deena: here goes (sturkle@media.mit.edu)"

Deena says, "What we need is a place to share these great resources. Which I guess, this chat does..."

Julianne says, "Deena I can loan you Sherry's _The Second Self_. "

rjnagle says, "Well, I know this is immature of me. But star trek just finished recording on my vcr. And also I'm beat. I think I will head out soon."

Julianne says, "Voyager?"

Arun says, "To Deena: She has also contributed to Hypertext community!"

rjnagle says, "Deena, what percent of people here will be at the conference next week?"

Deena says, "Julianne, yes, please bring it with you :)"

Julianne says, "Robert, I'll be there starting Weds AM. Several others here were going."

rjnagle says, "oh, I don't know. I get them all mixed up. They all have vulcans, don't they?"

Arun shares a URL... . http://www.angelfire.com/ks/learning/index.html

Julianne says, "Yes, they all have vulcans..."

Deena loves star trek and always will

Arun says, "Hi: This is my multilingual site!"

Deena says, "Rnagle, I think most of us will."

Deena says, "Arun, are you coming to HT00?"

Arun says, "No, Deena: May be next time!"

Julianne says, "It's great Arun. Since you are in Europe now, you might enjoy the "Digital Arts and Culture 2000" in Bergen Norway in the first week of "

Julianne says, "August"

Arun says, "I do wish all of you -a very nice gathering."

Julianne says, "So long everybody!"

Arun says, "Okay!" rjnagle says, "I should put my two cents in. I'm convinced that very soon India will own the Internet. Hopefully I'll find a way to live there for a time in my life. Off to star trek. Goodbye."

Arun says, "bye rjnagle :-)"

Deena says, "Thanks for coming!"

rjnagle has disconnected. The housekeeper arrives to remove rjnagle.

Deena says, "Actually, guys, I'd like to cut tonight's chat sort--I am really not feeling well."

Deena says, "Thanks for coming, though and we have had some great ideas!" Julianne says, "OK Deena and Arun, good night!"

Julianne has disconnected. The housekeeper arrives to remove Julianne.

Deena says, "Next chat will be June 13 and we will celebrate ezines."

Arun says, "Okay Deena, Stay well, I have also to go, Bye :-)"

Deena says, "Arun, what is your e-mail address?"

Arun says, "hey, you already know it!"

Deena says, "Oh, right. I know you :)"

Deena says, "And I will see you next time!"

Arun says, "Okay, anyway (tripathi@statistik.uni-dortmund.de) "

Deena says, "Thanks and good night :)" --

End log: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 9:13:57 pm CDT