Chat Transcript: October 15, 2000

Part 1. Checking out electronic literature: with Chris Rippel.

Chris has been a librarian for 10 years and is the head of continuing education for the Central Kansas Library System. Libraries have always been pivotal in introducing literature and maintaining a place for readers to explore new ideas. How can libraries continue to provide access to electronic media?

See: Chris' discussion of ebooks before the Triconference 2000: Can e-books improve libraries?

Related Links


-- Start log: Sunday, October 15, 2000 2:28:30 p.m. CDT

Deena says, "I need to restart my engines"

Deena has disconnected.

runran tiptoes out.

runran leaves.

Deena has connected.

BadWine arrives from General Elit chat links

Deena says, "Hi BadWine"

Deena says, "Great name."

Deena sets out wine and cheese and gooie goodies definitely not allowed in most libraries

BadWine says, "Hello Deena""

Deena has disconnected.

BadWine has a worried look.

Deena has connected.

BadWine says, "Hello Deena. Glad to have you back. I was worried.""

Deena says, "Sorry about that. I got restarted. I am running the Impermanence Agent, which we'll be talking about November 5th and the agent kicked me off. So I disabled it"

BadWine says, "I feel like a verign.""

Deena says, "Any way I can help you practice?"

Deena says, "So...tell me about being verign... :) "

tourist arrives from Tower of Babble

Deena says, "Hi tourist!"

Deena says, "I am paging folks so they know to come in"

tourist leaves for Tower of Babble

Deena offers goodies to all.

BadWine says, "Being a virgin wrecks your spelling""

Deena says, "Yes, other things will do it to."

BadWine says, "Hi tourist"

Deena hands over a spell wand guaranteed not to misspell

BadWine says, "Thanks""

tourist arrives from Tower of Babble

BadWine says, "What does the 'say' button do""

Deena says, "We are warming up for the chat"

Deena says, "If you push say, then you don't have to type a quote mark before you talk"

BadWine says, "Thanks"

Deena says, "In the normal mode, you have to do a quote mark before talking or a colon before doing"

Deena passes out colons.

BadWine says, "No thanks, already got one"

Deena nods and thinks of the Sherlock Holmes story where they found lots of wonderful things in colons.

tourist leaves for ComMOOnity (Second Dimension)

Deena says, "Tourist seems to be flying everywhere..."

BadWine says, "Tourists are that way by nature."

Deena promises to be rude no longer, shakes herself and starts to be a real host

Deena says, "Yes, I wonder if it is a robot getting room info..."

Deena says, "Well, we will wait for a few minutes and get started..."

Deena says, "The earlier chat had a dead link to their pages, so people may still be confused..."

Taylor arrives.

Deena says, "We are working this in conjunction with the Cheltenham Festival in London"

Deena says, "Hi Taylor"

Deena says, "We are going to talk about libraries and checking out electronic lit--"

BadWine says, ""Hi Taylor, My name is BadWine I am the guest whatever."

Taylor says, "Well, this is all new to me - new technology AND subject!"

Deena says, "Ahh, BadWine, are you Chris?"

Deena says, "Great, this is a good intro to a wonderful world"

BadWine says, "BadWine is Chris. I am sorry that wasn't clear before."

Deena says, "Taylor, is this your first time MOOING?"

Taylor says, "Gosh, does it show?"

Deena now sees the light

Deena says, "Not at all. You said new technology, so..."

Deena says, "basically, just type a " and your message, or a : and your action"

BadWine says, "If it makes you feel better. I am new this."

Deena says, "Or you can just have the button on the right say and type whatever you want to say."

Deena says, "It is a great place to share URLs though..."

Deena says, "Taylor, have you read any electrynnnic literature?"

Deena says, "electronic"

Deena pounds her spelling wand on the table and demands that it function properly.

Taylor says, "Five minutes with your writing. I don't think that counts."

Deena blushes.

Deena says, "Sure. At least you have an idea of the fun stuff available"

Taylor says, "I didn't do you justice in so short of time, but I'm willing"

Cheryl arrives.

Deena says, "Hi Cheryl, we are introducing ourselves..."

Deena welcomes all and puts out more wine and cheese and vats of library pasties

BadWine says, "Hi Cheryl. My name is BadWine. I am the guest speaker or whatever."

Taylor says, "I'm Taylor - a newbie."

Deena says, "Chris Rippel has been a librarian for 10 years and is the head of continuing education for the Central Kansas Library System. "

Deena says, "Chris, how has literature changed in the last 10 years? What new forms are you seeing pass through the library?"

Cheryl says, "hey everyone. sorry, I'm in and out -- getting tea ready."

Cheryl says, "Oh, introduction: I'm a PhD student at Michigan Tech"

BadWine says, "Though I have been told that libraries purchased hypertext literature during the 1980s, I believe little of this literature left the building. "

Deena says, "Were any of the hypertexts used in the building."

BadWine says, "That is to say that libraries are not very involved in promoting electronic literature at this time. However, I think the 1998 introduction of hand-held readers may change that. At this time at least 30 libraries are circulating hand-held electronic readers. Mostly Rocket eBooks"

guest arrives.

Deena says, "Hi Guest, we are chatting with Chris Rippel about checking out ebooks in libraries"

BadWine says, "Librarians are waking up to the fact that electronic books may appear in their lifetimes."

Deena says, "How are they circulating hand held readers?"

>> guest is now known as KLynB.

BadWine says, "Librarians are circulating hand-held readers by loading a fixed set of titles on them and checking them out to their patrons."

Deena says, "How have patrons received this?"

BadWine says, "They seem pretty popular, but the evidence is unclear to me."

Deena says, "How have library administrators seen eBooks?"

Waterfall_Guest arrives from trAce

Deena says, "Cheryl, Taylor, have you guys worked with ereaders?"

szcz arrives.

Deena says, "Hi, we are talking about electronic readers and checking them out from libraries."

Taylor says, "It was discussed in a library where I worked until three weeks ago. Silicon Valley California!"

Deena says, "Have you held readers"

Cheryl says, "I've seen one, but I haven't really worked with them, other than the rocket ebook reader for your computer. I use the dictionary out of that."

Deena wonders what happened three weeks ago and if she should offer sympathy or congrats.

BadWine says, "I have read with a Rocket eBook and Palm Pilot. I have not personally circulated them in a library."

Taylor says, "Yes, but I'm still adjusting my learning style to electronic reading. I'm getting better - I LOVE my palm pilot."

Deena says, "I haven't seen a library that will do reading. I just got the palm pilot--how do you read on a palm?"

BadWine says, "Palm Pilots require reading software."

Deena says, "What other experiences have you guys had in checking out eliterature from libraries?"

BadWine says, "The three major brands of reading software are PortisDoc, TealDoc and Peanut Press just released their Peanut Reader."

Judy arrives.

Deena takes notes and will get URLs later.

Deena says, "Hi Judy, we are talking about checking out electronic literature in libraries with Chris Rippel."

Judy says, "Hi all."

Deena says, "What do you all see as potential roles for libraries as we expand into e readers, palm pilot readers, etc?"

BadWine says, "There are several places to get Palm Pilot titles."

Deena passes around the latest eBooks and e readers and palsms for all

Floyd arrives from Tower of Babble

Deena Passes out psalms and palms

Judy says, "Is anyone here from England."

Deena says, "We are actually doing this chat in conjunction with the Cheltenham Festival on Literature. . ."

BadWine says, "What is the Cheltenham Festival on Literature?"

Deena says, "The Cheltenham Festival is an annual physical event celebrating books. this year, we are celebrating the place of books--voila this chat on the place of libraries for electronic lit..."

Deena shares a URL...<>.

Deena says, "You can press look to get rid of the URL on the right, or you can share more URLS by typing @http://whatever"

Deena says, "What do you guys see as the future role of libraries in electronic books?"

Floyd says, "Possibly a room full of servers"

Taylor says, "I need clarification. Does e-literature refer to both e-books on hand-held devices AND literature online with multiple links like Deena's novel?"

Deena says, "Good point Taylor. In fact, there are a LOT more works than are covered in palms, ereaders, etc. My work can be seen on some ereaders, but is best viewed on a computer. Other hypertexts, such as those from Eastgate Systems are actually on disks and you buy them like traditional books, put them in one computer like traditional software."

Deena says, "Eliterature is changing rapidly!"

KLynB says, "Is reading software available for the Newton?"

Deena passes out more confusion

BadWine says, "I have never heard of reading software for the Newton."

Deena shares a URL...<>.

Deena says, "It is hard to quantify different kinds of eliterature."

KLynB says, "Is anyone here at the festival?"

Deena says, "But, given that the media is SO fluid, how can libraries help people gain access to it?"

Ercy arrives.

Deena says, "Hi Ercy, we are talking about libraries and what they can do to help get access to electronic literature."

Deena says, "One thing I was thinking about--most libraries have access to the internet, and there are many works that can be either downloaded from sites or viewed online. Have libraries used the internet to promote literature?"

BadWine says, "Libraries have used Internet to promote paper books, but not eliterature."

Floyd says, "I think it would be nice to see libraries start providing access to palm type computers and Rocket eBooks and the like"

BadWine says, "Most librarians have never heard of eliterature because most patrons have never heard of eliterature and don't ask for it."

KLynB says, "In this political climate, many librarians may not think it prudent to support eliterature."

Deena says, "Chris, how can we educate libraries?"

Deena says, "KLynB, what would help entice libraries to see it as prudent?"

BadWine says, "By talking to librarians and walking into libraries and asking them for eliterature. Build demand."

MikeS quietly enters.

Deena says, "Hi Mike, we are trying to figure out ways to build demand for electronic literature, so libraries know about them."

Floyd says, "I recently saw a news story where a school in Illinois was promoting student use of palm pilots, I believe they issued them to the students. "

KLynB says, "Unfortunately, with the pseudo-scandals re: children accessing adult materials, it may be better to lay low...?"

Deena says, "Please feel free to introduce yourselves again...we have gained a lot of folks..."

Deena says, "Floyd, how did the schools approach palm pilots? Was it from the content or the usefulness of the palm?"

Floyd says, "I believe it was."

Taylor says, "AND provide education. ALA conferences, library schools, et. I'm from the field of library literacy - another field facing resistance from libraries."

Deena says, "Taylor, what is library literacy?"

BadWine says, "Taylor, In what way are libraries resisting library literacy?"

Floyd says, "My name is Floyd, by the way and I am an afficionado of hyper text"

Deena says, "KLyn and all, how do the so called scandals of the net provide fuel for non internet use? Or do they matter?"

KLynB says, "Blocking software, permission cards; no libraries have removed internet access yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if some did if enough pressure was placed on them"

Deena says, "I'm Deena, the erstwhile host, and trying to keep stuff on track--or multitracked. I love hypertexts."

Taylor says, "Teaching people to read and write and use technology! E-lit may be another tool for this. Some libraries don't feel it's their job to provide the literacy services. "

Deena says, "Taylor, KLyn, are the internet issues in libraries related to literacy--"

KLynB says, "Not at this point; the issues are related to freedom of access to information"

Deena says, "What is the role of libraries in reaching people about technology, about new media, etc? Who decides what these roles are?"

Deena says, "Chris, have you found any issues to teaching tech related to checking out e readers?"

Scott Rettberg arrives.

Deena says, "Hi Scott, we are talking about how libraries see their role in teaching people about technology."

BadWine says, "If I understand the question, librarians will need to teach patrons how to use e-readers because they are somewhat different from books"

BadWine says, "paper book"

Deena says, "What is a library's role in teaching literacy, literature, etc.?"

Elizabeth arrives.

Deena says, "Hi Elizabeth, we are talking about libraries and what their role is in promoting and accessing electronic lit"

Deena says, "Chris, have the libraries balked at spending resources to teach people how to use e readers?"

Elizabeth says, "Hi Deena and all; thanks; I am also a librarian, so ..."

BadWine says, "Taylor is right that many librarians do not see their role is teaching literacy."

Deena says, "Chris, Taylor, how do librarians see their roles?"

Taylor says, "Libraries are the University of the people. Words and technology can become divisive, but libraries can help bridge the gap. What could be more important?"

Deena claps amen to that and hands round a toast complete with butter.

Taylor says, "In all fairness, though libraries are strapped and things are changing rapidly."

Deena says, "So, in view of shrinking budgets and expanding roles, how can libraries promote literature and technology?"

BadWine says, "Librarians who have purchased e-readers are happy to teach people how to use them."

BadWine says, "I think one major role for libraries is to introduce e-books to people who would never have asked for them."

Scott Rettberg says, "How have library patrons been reacting to the devices?"

Deena says, "Good point Chris. This can't be driven by patron demand when patrons don't know about the literature!"

Deena says, "In fact, that will be a key point in next week's chat with Elizabeth, when we talk about how to preserve literature!"

BadWine says, "On the whole I think positively, but I have no data to support this."

Deena says, "Would there be a way to get feedback from patrons?"

Deena is willing to run out to Kansas to check out an e reader...

BadWine says, "Deena how do I put in a URL?"

Deena says, "Type @URL http://wwwwhatever"

BadWine shares a URL for the Electronic Book Evaluation Project...<>.

Deena says, "Chris, what is the book evaluation project? How did this get started?"

Scott Rettberg says, "I wonder what plans Gemstar has for eBooks in libraries"

Editor's Note: See article on Gemstar's plans for ebooks.

Floyd says, "I do not believe that Project Gutenberg is publicized enough."

KLynB shares a URL...<>.

Deena says, "Floyd, good point. That is an excellent resource."

BadWine says, "I can't say about Gemstar."

Floyd says, "I will get it"

BadWine says, "The most progressive e-book producer relative to libraries is Glassbook."

Deena says, "Chris, is Glassbook working with libraries to provide discounts, etc?"

Floyd says, "Yes th is a very good link one moment while I bookmark it."

Scott Rettberg says, "and--these things are hard to track -- Glassbook is linked with Adobe now, I think?"

BadWine says, "I am not sure, but they have software librarians can use to check out Glassbooks."

BadWine says, "Yes Adobe bought Glassbook"

Deena 's head whirls at all the changes in the last year on ereaders and can't keep up

Deena says, "How can libraries determine the best things to get--even with a two year survey?"

Scott Rettberg says, "It's amazing how quickly this whole field is changing and bifurcating."

BadWine says, "To return to Gemstar. Gemstar recently announced their initiative to promote their product. In an article"

Editor's Note: This article was referenced earlier as Gemstar's plans for ebooks.

Deena says, "Yes, given the linear books on readers, the hypertext on the web and elsewhere and other software, how can we educate libraries to determine what they should get with their limited resources?"

Scott Rettberg says, "Gemstar has some pretty ambitious (and on the surface at least) pretty proprietary plans for the ebook industry."

BadWine says, "Yes"

Floyd says, "I think there should be a generic standard for e-books so it will not become platform dependent."

Deena says, "These are recent developments. Scott, can you fill us in?"

Cheryl says, "That's surprising about the proprietary manner of Gemstar, since everyone else seems to try to be coordinating efforts..."

Deena says, "Chris, what will this mean for ereaders in libraries?"

Deena says, "Floyd, the Open Ebook Forum was attempting to provide a standard, . Has anyone heard from them lately?"

BadWine says, "Standards would help libraries promote eBooks more efficiently"

Deena says, "How can we let libraries know what to buy with their limited funds? Where do libraries go for this information?"

Cheryl says, "What is sad is I had to de-subscribe from all my e-book listservs because I had too many other avenues of HT and multimedia to focus on. So much information!!"

Cheryl sighs at overload of info on e-literature

Scott Rettberg says, "Well, the distribution for one -- if you want to get an ebook title usable on the new Gemstar ebook, you need to go through the Gemstar server."

Deena says, "Yes, Cheryl, and if we are getting too much, then what are libraries, who aren''t familiar with this getting?"

BadWine says, "My own page is one of the best resources for libraries. @URL" (Editor's Note: Chris Rippel's page for the TriCounty Conference)

Floyd says, "A site like the w3c for e-books seems like a good idea. Or maybe the w3c could set the standard."

Cheryl says, "Exactly, Deena. who wants to try to discover the nuggets within the dirt (ok, bad metaphor)."

Deena says, "Scott, can ELO and other organizations help get the word out to libraries about what to get?"

Cheryl [to Deena]: THAT sounds like a good idea!

BadWine says, "Yes"

Scott Rettberg says, "We can do our best -- we try to boil things down the best we can."

BadWine says, "A good FAQ of electronic literature would be welcome."

Taylor says, "It seems like there must be some steps before advising on what to buy with limited resources. "

Scott Rettberg says, "The FAQ isn't a bad idea. Of course first we need the question"

solon quietly enters.

Deena says, "Hi solon, we are talking about ways to help libraries determine where to spend their limited resources for new media and electrronic media. Jump right on in."

BadWine says, "Of course, Deena and may of the people connected to ELO are promoting hypertext literature. "

Deena says, "Right. What would be the practical steps to take here?"

Cheryl wonders how many of us spend time doing FAQs and Bibliographies just because we love it.

elizabeth thinks Cheryl must be a librarian!

Helen arrives, like a train from Platform 9 and three-quarters.

Deena offers everyone more refreshments of their favorite kind and doubles it for Helen, who has had a rough day.

Cheryl wishes she were a librarian (cuz then she'd be getting paid for this)

Scott Rettberg says, "I actually view hypertext and other forms of electronic literature as a separate but related form than electronic publishing writ large"

Everdeen arrives.

Deena says, "Yes, but do librarians get paid a lot?"

Taylor says, "NOPE!"

Deena says, "Hi Everdeen, we are talking about libraries and how they can be infomred about electronic literature."

Helen says, "Hi all." Helen settles down to listen

Scott Rettberg says, "A lot of the most interesting electronic literature is on the web."

(Editor's Note: ELO's Directory shows many of these sites)

Everdeen says, "Hello all."

Elizabeth smiles at Cheryl, is also not getting paid for this; her library not having ever heard of ebooks probably.

Deena says, "What are ways that libraries find out about works now?"

Cheryl corrects her previously ambiguous statement about pay. she didn't mean librarians got paid a lot.

Everdeen says, "Yes that is a challenge. I was a law librarian back in the 1980's and we used Lexis and Westlaw and Dialog and participated in focus groups at West Publishing aobut how to market CDs."

Deena says, "Elizabeth, Taylor, others in the field, how would you inform your libraries about this?"

Elizabeth says, "Yes I will. I need to find out more myself, but I certainly will pass it back."

Cheryl laughs at Elizabeth Taylor :)

Deena says, "So Everdeen, you were connected then. What were your results?""

Deena passes around celebrity photos and namers for all

Everdeen says, "The cost dynamics etc have changed a lot since then. So a lot of my experience is ancient history."

Taylor says, "I'm not at a library any more, but I'll be teaching lib students. This will be a great topic of conversation for my course."

Deena says, "Elizabeth, who would you pass it back to? If ELO or others were to target libraries to distribute media, who would they contact?"

Taylor says, "I'm not a librarian, by the way."

cheryl [to Everdeen]: but still important

Everdeen says, "Taylor, pardon me, (I was late) but what sort of course and what do you do?"

Elizabeth says, "I work in a library with a specific subject area, art & design, plus an interest in The Book and a collection of artists' ebooks fit in a lot of different ways. Perhaps I can talk to you email first."

Taylor says, "Change management - distance ed starting in the Spring. It will be a first for me. I've already starting influencing (infecting?) the next generation with literacy courses."

Deena says, "Taylor, you will be reaching lots of future librarians. That is great!"

Scott Rettberg says, "I wonder if the ALA is developing policy guidelines, etc. regarding ebooks"

(Editor's Note: ALA = American Library Association)

Everdeen says, "Taylor, how interesting. In what department does that fall?"

Taylor says, "Or publishing articles?"

Deena says, "Maybe that is the way to influence libraries, through the next generation of librarians. I think we have shown in this conversation that we need a sea change of attitudes as well, to get libraries to take a role in promoting new literature and being a bridge between lit and tech"

Elizabeth says, "Good question Scott. I'm in England btw."

Deena says, "Yes, or in publishing articles. How can we get libraries and librarians to write articles on new media and electronic literature?"

Everdeen says, "I remember how difficult it was to get new attorneys to accept case law as it appeared online."

Cheryl [to Deena]: That's a start (with new generations) but as we've seen in composition and technorhet. fields, it takes a long time for things to happen in this way.

Deena sighs and tries to school herself to be patient for the long run

Helen says, "I'd like to see literature festivals promoting elit as well as traditional lit (very relevant this week)."

Deena says, "Everdeen, did you take specific measures to help people accept online case law?"

Helen says, "If I say elit they say oh yes Stephen King."

Deena says, "Yes, Helen, we were talking about Cheltenham earlier. Please fill us in"

cheryl says, "Not that it SHOULD take a long time to influence librarians towards ebooks"

Helen says, "I'm too tired.... been a long day. trAce went down in the middle of a workshop full of paying attendees."

Deena pats Helen's hand and says not to worry.

Helen says, "Told them about you and the paper maps of hypertext, Deena, they were really intrigued. I showed them webartery and Unknown and Rice and so on"

Scott Rettberg says, "You rock Helen"

Deena says, "Wow. That sounds like a lot!"

Deena Celebrates Helen's efforts at communicating elit!!

Scott Rettberg says, "Gemstar is in a way going to be in a position to arbitrarily establish standards and distribution structures, since they'll be the first to mass market single purpose devices. Could be kind of scary."

Everdeen says, "I was Manager of Library and Information Services at a law firm. I was responsible for introducing attorneys (of widely differing years in practice) to the computer and the databases."

Cheryl [to Everdeen]: how did that go?

Deena puts Stephen King and Gemstar together, gets scared, and runs out of the room for a sec

Taylor says, "Has anyone documented WHAT the librarian's questions and concerns are? "

Deena says, "Very good point. Chris, have you done this?"

Everdeen says, "I conducted in-house seminars explaining everything from how concordances were constructed to the inputting of text in Korea.

Everdeen says, "As well as create various point-of-use materials ..."

BadWine says, "In a preconference early this year I collected the momoments and ideas of libraries"

Deena says, "Yes, Chris, please share that URL. And maybe conferences are a good way to network and get this out."

BadWine says, "I have not posted it up on the web because it is a list. I could post it but it is very long"

Kristin arrives from Tower of Babble

Deena says, "Hi Krisin, we are talking about libraries and how we can get libraries to understand and vlue new media"

Deena plots about getting a small group of librarians together to spread the word...

Everdeen says, "Of course at that time, librarians did most of the specialized searching (Dialog, for instance). So it was not so different from the user's point of view than any reference/research question handled by the library staff."

Helen says, "Elizabeth and I and Sue presented at Digital Resources for the Humanities last month (Have you mentioned our cool reception there, E?"

Deena claps for Elizabeth, Helen and Sue

Elizabeth says, "I hadn't Helen"

Helen says, "They were more interested in digitising Chaucer than in making NEW works available"

Deena says, "So Everdeen, we can work on what is already available and just expand it?"

Elizabeth says, "They weren't cool, just few!"

Deena smacks her head in mistranslations. Cool as in English cold...

Helen says, "Yes cool [ not good]"

Helen says, "Lots about making catalogues of digital works, but when I said scholars should review modern elit they said "why"?"

Elizabeth laughs.

MikeS says, "OTOH, we need the classics (and various older stuff) digitized, too, Helen"

Deena says, "Are they reviewing modern lit in paper? Then they should be willing to review electronic texts, too!"

Scott Rettberg says, "I think a lot of the work in communicating what's culturally relevant about electronic literature and electronic publishing to libraries is a matter of breaking it down -- there's a big difference between Project Gutenberg, the developing ebook field, and the best of current electronic lit"

Everdeen says, "I think one of the important things has been to let library patrons know *where* and how the information has been obtained...without overwhelming them, of course."

Deena says, "That is why we need to promote Gutenberg--and get this from both ends"

Helen says, "Oh yes, I would even buy the Chaucer but that's not the point."

Deena says, "Good point Everdeen, how can we do that?"

Everdeen says, "and certainly it is very different in a special library...compared to a public"

Deena says, "Helen, this goes back to Taylor's pint about the library literacy and how libraries see themselves--as bringers of new stuff or gaurdians of the old"

aphid quietly enters.

Everdeen says, "Deena, one of the things I did was to attach a form which gave a brief listing of the steps taken, sources consulted, etc to the material given to the attorneys and legal assistants"

floyd says, "There are things you can add to existing texts include commentary and essays on Chaucer for example."

Deena says, "Hi aphid, we are talking about libraries and how they can help publics understand and access eliterature."

aphid says, "Cool."

Everdeen says, "This form also was useful for us to keep track of what we used"

Deena says, "Everdeen, kind of like footnotes that you can look at if you are interested?"

Everdeen says, "And then sometimes...*gentle hints* to the users when presenting them with the results of the request...that individual instruction could be arranged."

Everdeen says, "Deena, usually, in part because it was important for the attorneys also to know the time, effort, and education/training that went into the research we were doing for them, the form was actually something clipped to the top of the they couldn't help but see it!"

Deena says, "Everdeen, maybe someone would be willing to do that kind of annotation for ereaders and the mechanical devices as well as ebooks and hypertexts?"

Scott Rettberg says, "The new stuff is part of the old stuff ten years from now."

Elizabeth says, "Apologies for being late and therefore probably missing key point -- but were you talking specifically about ebooks (i.e. device-specific) in libraries, or any electronic works?"

Deena says, "Good point Elizabeth. Actually I am being bad and mixing them all up in one bundle, but they really are different things.. So we are talking about all of it, if that is possible."

Scott Rettberg says, "We should have a big ven diagram."

Deena nods enthusaistically and lets Scott draw one...

Scott Rettberg says, "Of course first we need to check the headlines to see what's changed in the last week."

Everdeen says, "I think it is important first for us to be aware of the we approach a problem...often we just do it by the routine or instinct and don't realize the steps and how it might be passed on....especially if we are working long hours beyond what might be expected"

Deena says, "Right. It is getting hard to annotate all of this when it keeps changing. How do we deal with these changes when talking with libraries?"

Deena passes out nightcaps for long hours

Scott Rettberg says, "I think that interestingly, the electronic literature side of things is changing more slowly, on a more logical curve, than is the e publishing world"

Cheryl waves goodbye on her way to another meeting. :(

Deena says, "Thanks for coming Cheryl. The logs will be up on the elo site. Check our schedule of events at

Everdeen says, "I think it is important to work from what is rock-solid (if I may use that term) in building user acceptance and self-access"

Deena slyly substitutes electron-solid for rock solid

Deena says, "Yes, Everdeen, maybe a generic approach is best, to say here is some of the stuff out here, here is what it can do, here is why your library should make this available to your patrons."

Scott Rettberg says, "Maybe strangely, given that electronic literarature actually has more revolutionary implications for textuality than does electronic distribution"."

Everdeen laughs.

Elizabeth says, "I don't understand your distinction, Scott (sorry! stupid...)"

Everdeen says, "It's all silicon!"

Deena passes out silicon nodules to all

Scott Rettberg says, "The basic distinction I would make is that electronic literature is lit that couldn't be presented in a paper form that uses the capabilities of the computer to do things that authors couldn't do in a bound codex.."

Elizabeth says, "Oh right, rather than just e-delivery..."

Deena says, "Elizabeth, I think we are working on the discinction of can it be translated to print? If not, then it is truly electronic lit. If so, then it is like an ebook."

Deena now can't spell either. She pounds her spelling wand even harder on the table.

Everdeen says, "Sometimes we get so excited about what is newly available...and all the bells and whistles that we can play with...that we rush to present it to users...perhaps not being as aware as we should be that their tolerance for the slippery changes is lower."

Deena says, "Tolerance is a key factor."

Scott Rettberg says, "Not that ebooks could never be capable of those things. they could"

Elizabeth says, "Users are ok; it's the middle people. Students come in saying, Have you got a CD-Rom? they've no idea that content comes first."

Everdeen says, "Do we want to hold to a distinction between presentation say, on a cd-rom versus that of paper?"

BadWine says, "No"

Deena says, "Elizabeth, how do we get them to see the content first?"

Everdeen says, "Ah elizabeth, then are students not users???????"

elizabeth says, "Whereas librarians do cling to our known sources -- knowing how much they have to offer still."

Elizabeth says, "Deena, yes, that is the issue."

Deena says, "Maybe we need an "ebooks and eliterature in electrons" to go with our books in print"

Deenapasses out elit indices etched in silicon

Elizabeth says, "Certainly so."

Deena says, "Which would help with the annotation like the ones Everdeen did."

Deena searches for volunteers.

Scott Rettberg says, "I think books paper books will have a great deal to offer for a very long time. These things don't replace each other the way CDs replaced LPs"

elizabeth says, "It's still a better idea to start an art research project with the Grove Dictionary of Art, than on the net, if you are a student."

runran arrives from trAce

Deena says, "Hi runran, we are talking about indices of electronic books and resources for libraries."

Elizabeth remembers the Grove Dictionary is online too, now.

Deena says, "Yes, so many people run for the web first now."

Everdeen says, "But isn't it best to start with an analysis of the question?"

Deena passes out cobwebs

elizabeth says, "That was 'compris', Ev!"

Deena says, "Yes, libraries really have a role in helping find information, which starts with analyzing the question."

Elizabeth says, "Afraid I have to leave now -- so sorry, it's really interesting ... I'll check the log."

Scott Rettberg says, "One of the things I find disheartening about the current ebook industry is how much the major players are focused on making everything "like a book." That leaves so much out of the equation."

elizabeth says, "Thanks, and good bye."

Deena says, "Well, we could go on all day here, but I think we have reached some conclusions, if I might sum them up. We've said that we need to work on showing libraries roles in transmitting eliterature, finding ways to inform libraries even with the rapid changes, and focusing on wht we can show for elit. We need to develop FAQs and let libraries understand the basics of eliterature."

Deena makes book like silicon nodes for all

Scott Rettberg says, "Be sure and check out ELO's Directory at for some good reading."

Deena says, "Yes, the directory may be a great library card catalogue for elit..."

Deena says, "Any last thoughts before we close?"

Scott Rettberg says, "happy Sunday"

Deena says, "I think we have covered a lot of ground here, and I hope we can work with libraries and conferences to get the word out about electronic literarture, ebooks, ereaders, and all!"

Floyd says, "Thanks for the links and food for thought, I will add them to my site"

Deena says, "Join us next week, same time, for archiving electronic literature"

Deena says, "Email me at if you would like future announcements!"

Deena says, "Thanks for coming!"

floyd says, "bye"

Everdeen says, "have a good week!"

Deena says, "Bye!"

Deena has disconnected.

floyd tiptoes out.

BadWine arrives.

BadWine says, "Hello Judy"

BadWine says, "help here"

BadWine says, "What a lonely place"

BadWine leaves for Library

tourist arrives from Tower of Babble

tourist leaves for Tower of Babble

tourist arrives from Tower of Babble

tourist leaves for ComMOOnity (Second Dimension)

tourist arrives from ComMOOnity (Second Dimension)

tourist leaves for Tower of Babble

tourist arrives from Courtyard

tourist leaves for Courtyard

Sue quietly enters.

Sue tiptoes out.

Sue goes home.

anjana arrives from Tower of Babble


anjana says, "YOUR MESSAGE"

Julia arrives from Tower of Babble

Julia says, "Let"

Julia says, "Let's check out how to MOO"

Kristin says, " it's empty now""

Kristin says, "Ok""

Kristin says, "Oh, I used this yesterday, it was helpful""

Julia says, "Wish I had seen this sooner"

Kristin says, "I should have told you""

Kristin says, "have you used Moos before?""

Julia says, "No I should have known because I did this on Saturday. But our chat with Kemal took up a lot of time"

Kristin says, "lets see who is here""

Julia says, "In the MOO?"

Kristin says, "Type @who""

Julia says, "@who"

Kristin says, "do you see the list""

Julia says, "Yes"

Kristin says, "It shows where everyone is""

Julia says, "some people have been in here for days! "

Kristin says, "That's how I found the chat in Eliterature""

Julia says, "Have they no life?"

Kristin says, "I know, I think some are obsessed""

Kristin says, "anywhere else you want to go?""

Julia says, "Well let's do one more"

Kristin says, "Ok""

Julia says, "Second Dimension"

Kristin says, "Ok""

Julia leaves for ComMOOnity (Second Dimension)

-- End log: Sunday, October 15, 2000 10:51:18 pm CDT


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