note: I have only lightly gone over this one, thought it might be fun to see
a chat in it's original chaotic state.
-- Session Start: Sun Oct
21 20:58:45 2001
*** Feathers has joined #trAce
Sue Thomas says, "Hi feathers
Feathers says, "Hello
Sue says, "Is this your first time at chat?
Feathers says, "No, I was here a couple of times last month
Sue says, "Ah, I don't get here so much these days.
Sue says, "But I am standing in for Helen this week
Feathers says, "I am still a newbie at trAce
Sue says, "I've seen your posts
*** Margaret Penfold has joined #trAce
Sue says, "Hi Margaret
Feathers says, "I think I learn as much from making the posts as I do from the feedback
Feathers says, "Hello Margaret
Margaret Penfold says, "Hello everyone
Sue says, "Feathers, have you been in a community like this before?
Feathers says, "I don't think there is a community quite like this elsewhere
Margaret Penfold says, "Have we a subject tonight?
Sue says, "Margaret, it was meant to be frAme6 but it has been delayed so I would like to propose another topic
Feathers says, "Perhaps we could talk about community?
Margaret Penfold says, "Yes
Sue says, "I would like to propose we discuss how writers have been dealing with Sept 11
Sue says, "There are quite a few people waiting to come in
Margaret Penfold says, "In writing? On the whole haven't
Sue says, "Feathers, that's a good idea but I thought Sept 11 might be more general to the audience who have come for frAme6
Feathers says, "Not a problem
Sue says, "Hmm this isn't good
*** R Adams has joined #trAce
Sue says, "Ah randy
Margaret Penfold says, "Re Sept11 I am wary of being tactless
Sue says, "Then Margaret - try not to be!
*** Everdeen Tree has joined #trAce
Sue says, "Hi Everdeen
*** Tom Bell has joined #trAce
R Adams says, "Hey Ev
Sue says, "Good - I wondered because nobody replied to it
Sue says, "Welcome Tom
R Adams says, "Hi Tom
Everdeen Tree says, "Hello all
*** R Adams is now known as randy
Tom Bell says, "Hello, all
Sue says, "Attention please
Sue says, "Topic/ change
Everdeen Tree says, "Sorry (re topic/change)...I think you have to be a spider....
Everdeen Tree says, "But beyond that I don't know
Sue says, "I am afraid we have had to postpone the frAme chat because the issue is not finished yet..
(editor's note this chat took place on December 02 2001.)
Everdeen Tree says, "Just that Helen has mentioned being unable to do so when she wasn't a spider
*** Deena has joined #trAce
*** Everdeen Tree is now known as Ev
Sue says, "So I would like to propose that we talk about how writers are dealing with 11 Sept
Sue says, "Hi Deena
Sue says, "That is my suggestion - what do you think?
randy says, ":: ducks and covers
Tom Bell says, "I agree Sue
Deena says, "We are going to talk about how writers are dealing with 9-11?
Sue says, "That is my suggestion
Sue says, "What do you think Deena?
Deena says, ""Sure. I am so proud of myself I got an IRC to work after 6 months of trying :)
Sue says, "Well done!
Sue says, "We have a few more people waiting outside - I will go and page them again
* randy grabs a brownie from Ev
Deena says, " "But Sue I don't know how to log, so please log..."
Deena says, ":Hands round emergency rations and more brownies
Ev says, "Thanks for helping with the brownies
* Ev places the platter of triple-chocolate brownies on the table
*** Ev has quit IRC (QUIT: )
Sue says, "Deena I am logging already, don't worry
Sue says, "If anyone else would like to log as well that would be good
Tom Bell says, "I've been trying to write poetry. it's difficult but it seems to help
Sue says, "Tom, tell us more
Tom Bell says, "Poetry is a way of processing what's going on
Sue says, "I am writing what was/is a very positive book about virtual life.. but now I am having problems..
*** Helen Whitehead has joined #trAce
randy says, "I'm furiously processing cutups of news items, quite a backlog now, haven't a clue what I'll do with them
Sue says, "Some of the things I said earlier don't fit anymore
Deena says, ""I was already pretty active on some social matters (my best friend went through an ordeal that showed how poor and corrupt the U.S.'s social services is...) But the 9-11 seemed to be an awakening for America--that we do indeed live on planet earth and
Deena says, "Need to consider complex issues. I was disappointed in the way we are reacting, and so have been spending most of my time writing press releases, organizing war protests, etc.
Sue says, "Helen thanks for coming --
*** Everdeen Tree has joined #trAce
*** Helen Whitehead changes topic to '21st October: frAme6 chat postponed: discussion of 11th Sept responses '
Sue says, "Helen , the discussion is about how writers are dealing with sept 11
Margaret Penfold says, "Why not, Sue?
Deena says, ""Hi Helen :) hands Helen a brownie from platform 9 and 3/4
Everdeen Tree says, "Hello Helen
Tom Bell says, "This has been an active topic on 'poetics' list and elsewhere
Sue says, "Margaret for a start, I have written about New York City in a way which now needs to be changed
Helen Whitehead says, "Hello folks -- just got back from a long drive and am tired: just carry on and I'll listen quietly
Tom Bell says, "I've been writing out the media responses and modifying them
Margaret Penfold says, "In what way, Sue?
Deena says, ""Has virtual life changed much, Sue, do you think?
Sue says, "Deena that's a very good question - I think it has
Sue says, "In some ways
Deena says, ""Tom, how have you modified media responses?
Deena says, ""How has virtual life changed?
Tom Bell says, "Visually and verbally
Margaret Penfold says, "Has it really changed or is it just how you view it
*** Everdeen Tree is now known as Ev
Sue says, "In the days immediately following the attack, I was worried that the internationality of trAce and other places might be threatened
Tom Bell says, "I think virtual life has become more open and honest
Deena says, ""I have seen a lot of effective petitions--one got over 700,000 names in a matter of a week, and I have seen lots of great websites and places to put your comments... Having the web has changed the way we interact with events, but has this changed the way
Deena says, "We interact on the web?
Deena says, ""How more open and honest, Tom?
Sue says, "Now I am not so worried, but I think even in cyberspace people retreated to their own cultures even if just briefly
Ev says, "So a petition successful in getting signatures...effective in being a petition?
Deena says, ""How did you see people retreating Sue?
Tom Bell says, "People are more willing to share how they feel and not feel like they have to be someone
Deena says, ""Effective in getting signatures. Totally ineffective in urging peace and justice for those responsible.
Sue says, "Deena it's hard to explain and actually quite delicate
Margaret Penfold says, "Some of these petitions have IMO been put there purely for the purpose of disrupting the web
Deena says, " "Any particular examples you can point to?
Deena says, ""Interesting, Margaret. How do the petitions disrupt the web?
Helen Whitehead says, "People around me started reverting to racist attitudes of 50 years ago!
Sue says, "Well, in the early days, Americans were asking 'why do people hate us?'
Margaret Penfold says, "If you look at the signatures you will find the same names crop up over 100 times
* Ev nods
Tom Bell says, "You'd have to look at the poetics archives
*** Mike Byrne has joined #trAce
Ev says, "Some Americans were asking 'why do people hate us'?
Deena says, ""Maybe so, I didn't look at the actual signatures...
Tom Bell says, "Ask me later, Deena and I can be more specific
Sue says, "Ev, that's what we hear all the time over here
Sue says, "Is that not true?
Ev says, "Sue, did you hear me say it?
Margaret Penfold says, "They block up the nodes, they disrupt quite useful official functions
*** Mike Byrne is now known as Mike
Ev says, "Did you hear every American member of trAce ask it?
Mike says, "Good evening all
Ev says, "We are individuals.
Deena says, ""Margaret, the e-mailed petitions or the ones where you go to a web site to sign them?
Ev says, "The people who died are individuals.
Ev says, "We need to not forget that
Deena says, ""Hi Mike
Mike says, "Hi Deena
Ev says, "Not to forget that in the rush to understand to symbolize to politicize to motivate
Sue says, "Hi Mike
Mike says, "Hi Sue
Sue says, "Ev do you think it changed virtual life? What's your opinion?
Margaret Penfold says, "E-mailed petitions Deena. The ones you have to go to a website are fine so long as the owner of the site has no commercial sideline
Deena says, ""Yes, this is a tragedy for so many individuals on so many levels in so many countries...
Ev says, "I think we need to begin with precision in our own language.
Ev says, "I'm speaking now to the example of your comment.
Mike says, "So what's the crack this evening ?
Ev says, "It takes time to say
Mike says, "Ahem .......
Deena says, " "Ahhh... the one I was referring to was the website. Didn't get email ones. But my computers have been memwiped and down for over a month now.
Tom Bell says, "Precision or a new language, Ev
Deena says, ""Mike we are talking about how writers react to Sept 11
Ev says, "It is said that "Americans "Are asking..."Why do people hate us?"
Ev says, "But that is different
Ev says, "Or say...it is reported that many Americans are asking
Ev says, "But do not say Americans are asking
Sue says, "This is an interesting point Ev
Ev says, "As if all were unaware of global history or events
Margaret Penfold says, "What shocked me is one trAce member (who shall be nameless) told me in a shocked tone "I know for certain there was even an Afghanistani on the trAce site"
Helen Whitehead says, "Yes there are lots in MIME!
Mike says, "Well naturally I thought it was a tragedy myself, I extend my sympathies.
* Ev waves a belated hello to Mike
Deena says, ""Hmmmm....did they mean "There is an afghanistani and we should reach out in international cooperation..or....
Mike says, "Hi Ev.
Margaret Penfold says, "They meant the or Deena
Mike says, "But I think the bombing of Afghanistan is a mistaken policy
Deena says, ""Just got back from a protest here where a computer store called the cops when several Arab Americans bought a hard drive.
Sue says, "Deena, so you have been writing protest material?
Deena says, " "Bummer...I keep thinking people would see that people are people everywhere. We didn't say, oh my god, there is someone from Michigan on the list when Tim McVeigh was captured...
Ev says, "Deena, some people do....some don't
Deena says, ""Yes, mostly petitions, press releases, flyers, brochures...
randy says, "Most are unaware, Ev! so are Canadians
Sue says, "Have you made Any hypertexts or is this mostly print?
Ev says, "Randy, most is not all
randy says, "Who said all
Ev says, "To use the generic...as if all.....
Ev says, "Is to reinforce in language
Deena says, ""Mike, I agree. I like the analogy--if you find a complex problem in your bookkeeping, you don't blow up the books. You investigate to pinpoint the problem...
Ev says, "Stereotyping.....
Deena says, " "All practical print, at the moment.
Ev says, "It gets burdensome yes, to say
Ev says, "It seems that most Americans are
Ev says, "Or new reports say that most Americans are
Deena says, ""You are right Ev, I shall have to be more careful in my language...
Ev says, "But remember that most news reports....are of the out-of-the-ordinary
Sue says, "It's worse regarding Afghanistan because those people don't have a voice at all, esp the women
Margaret Penfold says, "As usual the civilians seem to be paying for a tyranny's sins
Deena says, ""Media seems to be part of the problem...we only have room for 5 second sound bites even though we have 24 hour news that needs new and sensational stuff. You can't explore interest rates, aid, history, oil, energy, etc. in the news...
Tom Bell says, "People seem to think the media speaks for Americans or to be more precise US citizens
Sue says, "Deena this is so true
Mike says, "Unfortunately, I am not involved in framing American foreign policy at the moment
Mike says, "Es tut mir lied
Ev says, "Then Tom where are our voices, as writers, pointing out the difference
Deena says, ""Yes, and we can't even tell how bad it is, but UN estimates are over 2 million will die in Afghanistan this winter from lack of food and medicine.
Ev says, "How many of the discussions on the lists have been
Mike says, "Nor am I likely to be in the foreseeable
randy says, "Thank goodness, mike
randy says, ";-)
* Mike laughs
Tom Bell says, "That's; the point. we need to speak
Margaret Penfold says, "What I can't understand is why if NATO or whatever helped Bin Ladin build those tunnels they didn't keep the maps and put in their own secret entrances
Ev says, "Continuing with the "Americans are".....formula...
Deena says, ""Ouch, really Tom? I would hate to have my voice judged by the media...
randy says, "Good point, tom, very good
Deena says, ""Margaret, we seem to be paying not only for tyranny's sins, but for US foreign bumbling sins as well...
*** Reiner has joined #trAce
Sue says, "Hi Reiner
randy says, "Welcome Reiner
Sue says, "The frAme discussion has been postponed
Ev says, "We need to start in our own everyday language in our own neighbourhoods in our own chats...to be more precise....that in itself is important
Deena says, ""Hi Reiner we are talking about how writers have reacted to and are writing about 9/11
Reiner says, "Does it work now?
Deena says, ""Yep we can see you
Sue says, "Reiner tell is about Germany...
Tom Bell says, "We bumbled Vietnam because people didn't speak out early enough
Sue says, "How are writers reacting to sept 11 in Germany?
Margaret Penfold says, "The thing is we have known about the appalling conditions of Afghanistani women for over three years - why this sudden interest at this particular time
Tom Bell says, "Or weren't allowed to speak
Deena says, ""Right, before there were a few petitions, some bits of aid, but not much.
Mike says, "I don't class myself as a writer, I see myself more as a commentator
Sue says, "I have a more general question...
randy says, "Cultures are always judged by the loudest voices, and the loudest are always reactionary, it seems
Ev says, "Tom, it does seems to me that there is a difference in the media treatments this time compared to the Vietnam war
Margaret Penfold says, "Why, when we are so short of nurses and doctors didn't we go in and grab them for the NHS, the qualified ones
Sue says, "Is it possible to make art at such a raw time, or is the best art made in later reflection?
Deena says, ""I don't think a lot has CHANGED since 9/11 it is jut that some people are more aware of the complex issues in the world now and the passions behind some of these issues.
Mike says, "Yes what about Germany ?
* Mike listening
Tom Bell says, "Ev, say more about difference
Deena says, ""Sue, maybe Reiner can answer that--he put together pieces during the Bosnian war "Weak Blood"...
Reiner says, "I can not speak for Germany
Margaret Penfold says, "Would that web email re Afghanistani have done the rounds so fully before Sept 11?
Tom Bell says, "Reiner, if you do it again I'll contribute
Ev says, "There seems to be.....if you look at the whole.....of a news magazine....or a networks coverage...more balance to the presentation
Deena says, ""I think we need both--the raw emotions of the time and then the later reflections. We also need something to read and react to rather than the media accounts...
randy says, "Yeah, in the Vietnam war, journalists were allowed to mingle with the troops on the ground...not this time!
Deena says, ""We need an emotional resonance now...
Reiner says, "I think I will not do something like weak blood at the moment
Sue says, "In the UK they are bringing in new anti-religious-hatred legislation and it is having an interesting spin off...
Margaret Penfold says, "Every war I've been in we have been assured the propaganda is only on the enemies' side
Deena says, ""Reiner, did you see a difference in the weak blood pieces done in the raw moment and those done later?
Ev says, "More in-depth coverage of the background (both politics and culture) and of issues....of wider ramifications
Sue says, "Comedians are saying that they will not be able to make jokes about sensitive things anymore and that this is unhealthy
Deena says, "Ahhh. n ow I get the Jedi knight as religion in the Brit census bit..
Sue says, "That's different!
Ev says, "Than in the early days of the Vietnam war
Reiner says, "Deena, all pieces of weakblood have been done in the "Raw moment"
Sue says, "But its an interesting point re comedians and by extension writers
Ev says, "Or even the middle days....
Deena says, ""Yet, when we look back, we see a lot of US propaganda. In the Gulf War, the US lied about Iraqis killing babies in incubators...
Reiner says, ""Truth is the first victim of war"
Ev says, "Not arguing that Deena....there is a lot under the carpet now I'm sure......and I would sigh...as always...
Deena says, ""Sorry for the Jedi herring, Sue. How is the anti religious stuff affecting Britain and what are the spin offs?
Sue says, "There is bound to be propaganda everywhere and yet I find myself watching the news all the time even tho it is appallingly limited
Mike says, "I think politics is a distraction to stop writers form writing ; it's a vast conspiracy
Reiner says, "I think the media/propaganda nowadays is much more subtle than .......
Mike says, "... to prevent the truth from being spoken
Ev says, "Limited how Sue...what in particular do you sense is missing in UK coverage?
Sue says, "Ev - frankly - detail
Sue says, "There is very little detail
Ev says, "Detail with respect to....what
Deena says, " "Ahhh,... Then can you see a difference between weak blood pieces and pieces about war that are not done in war time?
Sue says, "For example..
Helen Whitehead says, "I'd like rather LESS detail -- why go on about smallpox, it'll just frighten everyone and give terrorists ideas!
Margaret Penfold says, "Yes, its like a great detailed backdrop to a film with the foreground action missing
Sue says, "The BBC interviewed a doctor who treated the 10 yr old boy who died - son of mullah amah
Sue says, "Sorry cant spell his name
Deena says, "Actually, there seems to be too much detail about potential threats and not enough about WHY we are doing what we are doing in Afghanistan, what the evidence against Bin Laden etc, is, how other countries are reacting...
* Ev nods...listens to Sue continue
Sue says, "They ran the interview on the radio but not in the tv - why? - both BBC
Sue says, "The reason is that it is sound only - they are choosing what looks good on tv
Helen Whitehead says, "Maybe the threats detail is to make us support the bombing....
Sue says, "That is why it is so limited
Ev says, "Radio vs. television...isn't that a matter of distribution rather than detail
Ev says, "Detail available
Sue says, "No, Ev
Tom Bell says, "Reiner, why not another 'weak blood'
randy says, "The bullshit I don't like is the :: you are either with us or against us ::
Margaret Penfold says, "Of course, Helen
Deena says, ""The BBC coverage seems more open and forthcoming than the NPR coverage we get here...I can only get the BBC world news on radio, though...
Helen Whitehead says, "Well I want to go out and get some Muslim friends, and I find that I don't know how....
Ev says, "Sue, what detail was lacking in that interview then
Sue says, "Also--- even on BBC they seldom showed translation or when afghan people are speaking - esp bin laden
Reiner says, "The weak blood pieces are done in war times --- the pieces there are very different --- some may not differ from pieces done afterwards --- but - what or is there really a difference --- are pieces done afterwards really more reflective? ......
Ev says, "That you miss
Sue says, "Ev you are pressing me for more detail than I can give in a chat room conversation
Deena says, ""Randy, yes. and it is worse than that. Here it is "United we Stand."So if you say, wait, don't do racial profiling, think before we bomb, etc. then you are not united, not patriotic, and worse...
Ev says, "I'm just trying to understand where the detail is versus the distribution.
Ev says, "Sorry I won't continue asking
Sue says, "I
Deena says, ""Helen, mosques over here are very welcoming, and you might check the Arab Anti Discrimination League on the web...
Sue says, "M trying to say the detail is lacking throughout
Sue says, "It is all sound bites and picture bytes
Sue says, "Bites
Mike says, "Do they show pictures from Al Jezeera tv in the US? it was CNN in the gulf war
Margaret Penfold says, "Deena, isn't that what always happens in war? It is only afterwards that people come to their senses and feel ashamed. The younger generation always feels it won't happen to them and then they get more patriotic than their elders
Deena says, ""Reiner, I am not sure the pieces done after ARE more reflective... Thinking about Victory Garden, which is more a novel after the Gulf War..using the war as a setting, not reacting to the war... maybe that is the difference?
Tom Bell says, "Sue, the media will never provide detail. that's why poets' voices are important?
Mike says, "So at least they have their own coverage.
Sue says, "But tom, where do the poets get their information?
Reiner says, "Tom - do you think there is a real forum for something like weak blood --- are you sure that you/art can give Any "Suggestions"In the momentary situation. --- a difference for me is that in the momentary situation I do not see a "Need"For a project like this. the media/broadcast/tv here in Germany is very "Objective"In my sight.
Mike says, "Which is something, not that you can see much.....
Margaret Penfold says, "Of course, the only way to win wars is to unite a people
Tom Bell says, "From their reactions and reflections, Sue
Deena says, ""Margaret, maybe, but this time it feels different. There have always been antiwar protests, but I don't think that we saw the level of hatred, violence, and police intervention in previous protests... not sure, though...
Margaret Penfold says, "Afterwards you divide them again for your own benefit
Deena says, ""Sure, but what does UNITE mean? does it mean agree with everything Bush says?
Sue says, "Tom, ok, but they need real data to react to as well
Tom Bell says, "Remember Vietnam, Deena?
Deena says, ""Starts to divide the brownies rather than the people
Margaret Penfold says, "Look at the stirring speeches made by English kings in the middle ages
Deena says, ""Ummm...got it in history books, mostly. Sorry, Tom...
Sue says, "Question
Margaret Penfold says, "Look what happened to the wounded soldiers when they returned home
Tom Bell says, "My real data comes from talking with a neighborhood arab shopkeeper, Sue
Deena says, ""Listening to Sue...
Mike says, "Eh, let's not, Marg.. that was Shakespeare , wasn't it?
Sue says, "Is it possible to say anything new in a new way? it's so hard to write/make art and say things differently to make people listen
Tom Bell says, "And from how my kids are responding
Sue says, "The rhetoric of peace and war always ends up sounding the same for all situations - does it put people off listening do you think?
Tom Bell says, "Sue, that's why 'art' needs to change
Deena says, ""Sue, I'm not sure it is possible to say anything new about war. Human nature, violence, stupidity of destruction...all been covered. Maybe we can say something with different specifics...
Sue says, "Tom, yes, how?
Deena says, ""Maybe use the impacts of hypertext/graphics/motion to reach the emotions of people...
Tom Bell says, "I think the old forms didn't work
Sue says, "What images/texts have been powerful in the past?
Deena says, ""Tom, why not?
randy says, "My stepson told me yesterday that the 'Americans' got what they deserved; so I asked him if he thought all the people in the buildings deserved to die; he said, no; it seems many people are unable to view people as being separate from the policies of the leaders
Sue says, "I am thinking of the running girl in the Vietnam picture - napalm
Mike says, "Guernica.
Sue says, "Guernica mike yes
Reiner says, "Film / documentary shots reach the emotional level. what will be the message?
Sue says, "John Lennon's imagine
Sue says, "The burned Iraqi in the jeep
Tom Bell says, "Deena, the forms we have came from the old order
Ev says, "Yes Randy
Margaret Penfold says, "Maybe, Deena, there is something inbuilt into the human race that we have to cull ourselves. If we don't Gaia will send a new plague to do it instead
Reiner says, "Imagine is a positive fiction
Sue says, "Yes Reiner
randy says, "And if he got that opinion from things I said, then I am ashamed
Sue says, "Margaret I have heard it said that when we get too much for Gaia she will simply shrug us off
Margaret Penfold says, "So we make sure we don't get too much by culling ourselves?
Mike says, "I vote for Mars.
Sue says, "Randy it is back to Ev's point - we all talk in shorthand, probably too much
Tom Bell says, "We need to end media speak
Deena says, ""I vote for disease--much less noisy ;)
Mike says, "Forgoing to mars, Deena
Deena says, ""Maybe the new art needs to center around the media--to show what a skewed perspective we are getting...
Mike says, "I am going to Mars, byeee....
Sue says, "Deena how can we do that when censorship is in force
Tom Bell says, "Right, Deena
Reiner says, "Which perspectives will be left?
randy says, "Shorthand is usually all we have
Deena says, ""Not sure if we can. It is not so much information censorship as it is attitude censorship--if you talk about this, you won't be a UNITED we STAND...
Tom Bell says, "Sue, the censorship basically comes from the media's perception of what will sell
Sue says, "Tom, yes
*** Reiner has quit IRC (Connection Closed )
Helen Whitehead says, "The internet isn't subject to censorship -- that's one new thing about this medium
Margaret Penfold says, "Deena, this is mob war behaviour
Deena says, "REINER, good question. I think the perspective of this is a complicated issues, here are some of the complications may be left...
Sue says, "Helen I think it is!
Mike says, "Let's face it , we're finished .......
Margaret Penfold says, "People cannot hear reason - they only hear it as treason
Sue says, "Ok you cannot censor what goes up but you can censor organisations from connecting to it
Tom Bell says, "We need to go straight to the consumer and bypass the media. this is why weak blood worked?
Margaret Penfold says, "Even if before the war they would have agreed with you
Deena says, ""Oh yes, Margaret. It is definitely a mob attitude. I have spoken with neighbors and coworkers who believe that what we are doing is absolutely right and vital, and to say or think anything else is akin to destroying the country...
Deena says, ""Why are we finished mike?
Deena says, ""Tom, I think so. Weak blood went to the consumer via the web--we have a terrific messenger and a great way to get around censorship!
Mike says, "I'm being a bit facetious, I think we have to tackle these problems on an ethical level
Deena says, ""I need to get out early...was a great chat. thanks Sue!
*** Deena has left #trAce
Sue says, "Folks it's about time to close up
Helen Whitehead says, "I've had a long working day so I'm off to bed. Night night folks
Mike says, "Naturally if one is attacked one has the right to justice
Sue says, "Ah Deena is telepathic
Mike says, "I'm only just starting
*** Helen Whitehead has quit IRC (QUIT: )
Tom Bell says, "What does ethical level mean to you, mike?
Margaret Penfold says, "Bye, everyone
Mike says, "What is the the point in being serious
Sue says, "Thanks for coming and facing up to this difficult subject
*** Margaret Penfold has quit IRC (QUIT: )
Mike says, "Ethical means
randy says, "I think the root of the problem is religion, and there are no ethics in that regard
Sue says, "Goodnight - I have to leave you to it
Sue says, "Bye
Mike says, "Goodnight
Session Close: Sun Oct 21 21:59:36 2001