Chat Transcript: November 18, 2001
Converging Electronic Art and Lit
Electronic literature is rapidly becoming indistinguishable from art.

Our guest is Nisar Keshvani from Singapore. A digital media lecturer at Ngee Ann Polytechnic, Nisar is also editor-in-chief of fineArt forum, a 14-year-old art & technology news service. He is a trained Internet journalist, web developer, educator and new media specialist. He has worked for various foreign magazines and newspapers since 1993. He has lectured in online journalism at Australia's Queensland University of Technology, and researched the Internet's impact on journalists, new media technologies, media convergence, and WWW content management. (Contact him at

About fAf:
fineArt forum (ISSN No: 1442-4894), is the longest running arts magazine on the Internet. The 14-year-old international news service specialises in new technologies in the arts and design. Our monthly email digest goes out to around 1700 subscribers and about 7 500 readers visit our website on a regular basis. The majority of our readers are professionals in the arts and design world. We also act as a news feed to several magazines and agencies like Christies and JP Getty Foundation.

Our second guest is Cynthia Rubin, representing the International Society for Electronic Art.


Related Links


-- Start log: Sunday, November 18, 2001 2:00:22 pm CST
Nisar and Robert_Nagle_ quietly enter.
Deena says, "Hi Robert. "
Deena says, "Good morning Nisar!"
Nisar says, "Hi Deena. Yawn. It's really early in the morning here. 4:30 am. "
Deena says, "OUCH. I am really sorry about that. I had to do one of these from Japan at that time and it did hurt. Thank you thank you thank
you for your dedication:)"
Deena serves Nisar a HUGe cup of black coffee and express-o
Nisar says, "Hahah that's mighty cool. "
Deena gives Nisar a brain opener--similar to a can opener.
Nisar says, "I hope I deliver to your expectations. This is my first online thingee. . . . . "
Deena says, "You will do beautifully. Thanks so much :)"
Nisar says, "Thank me, when its over . . . . - see whether you are satisfied. *sheepish grin*"
Deena says, "Your enthusiasm and your obvious expertise on the FineArt forum is more than enough to carry you. . . "
Nisar says, "Thank you . . . :)"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Testing. Is my microphone on?"
Deena says, "HI Robert. Read you loud and clear. "
Deena says, "Just go with the flow. . . If I or anyone else ask anything you don't want to answer, ignore it. . . this is like a dinner party conversation more than an interview. . . "
Nisar says, "Aaaah. that's a good way to look at it. "
Deena says, "BTW, Nisar, the conversations get a bit convoluted. When I edit the log, I put stuff together so it flows. "
Deena says, "So don't worry"
Nisar says, "Kool. That sounds good. . . . "
Nisar says, "Can everyone in here see everything that's written?"
Deena says, "Right. Everyone sees all the conversations. "
Deena says, "Then people respond to previous points, keep typing on new points, it gets fun. "
Deena says, "An art form in itself"
Nisar says, "Okie. . It's gonna be baptism by fire ;)"
Anja quietly enters.
Deena says, "Hi Anja. How is life, your thesis, et. al?"
Anja says, "Hi"
Anja says, "Hi Deena, the thesis is done. Life's in stasis before changing jobs at last. Good to read you again. "
Deena says, "Robert, what have you been up to in Texas? Are you going to the ELO symposium in April? or the ht02 in June"
Helen arrives, like a train from Platform 9 and three-quarters. Helen says, "Hello Deena, Robert, Anja, Nisar"
Deena hands round more champagne and eggnog and other magical warming drinks.
Nisar says, "Allo Helen. "
Robert_Nagle_ says, "That the Helen from UK?"
Anja says, "Hi Helen"
Helen says, "Hi, Yes, I'm Helen from trAce."
Robert_Nagle_ says, "All right. I am RJ Nagle, from Hypertext 2000"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "I sat next to you once or twice, I believe. "
Deena says, "This is old home week!"
Helen says, "My goodness. . . that was a while ago now! Did you go to Hypertext 2001?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Oh, wanted to. . . . "
Helen says, "Me too. . . but neither money nor time. . . . "
Robert_Nagle_ says, "The timing wasn't right. Actually, I ended up going to Europe to see my girlfriend a month or two before. Couldn't do
both. "
Deena says, "Nisar, we all go to hypertext conferences which deal with computing and other aspects of hypertext, including lit."
Helen says, "Did Cyberflats come off Deena?"
Deena says, "Nope, I was too ill and preoccupied to do it. . . "
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Deena, that statement makes me laugh. I use that excuse often. "
Helen says, "Come to Incubation2 next July Rob!"
Deena says, "One of the things we talked about in HT00--June of 2000. Can it be that long ago? was art and literature converging."
Nisar says, "Oooh thanks for that Deena. Sounds like a class reunion from here. With me as an observer"
Loki93c arrives.
Deena says, "Hi Loki, we are chatting but will get started pretty quick."
Deena hands round more warm bubbly and definitely alcoholic drinks.
Loki93c says, "Hello"
Helen looks for the margaritas to remember San Antonio by. . .
Deena hands round nostalgic margaritas, ten gallon hats, and remember the Alamo pins for all those who were--and weren't--at ht00.
Helen says, "Did you see - the HT00 domain turned into a porno site? I got SUCH a shock!"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "!!!"
Deena says, "Oh no Helen how HORRIBLE!"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Well, the porn sites are the popular art galleries. I guess the occasion of ht00. org becoming a porn site is a sign of how intertwined art and literature can become. "
Deena says, "Of course, Deena. com is one as well. . . encroaching epidemic. . . "
Helen says, "Oh no, Deena, how horrid for you -- I think they like to pick up domains that had been used by a lot of people."
Robert_Nagle_ says, "What is incubation2?"
Helen says, "Incubation is our second conference on Writing and the internet that we hold in Nottingham UK. Great fun last time in 2000, very international"
Deena says, "Right, which is our topic today. . . how art and lit are combining. . . "
Anja arrives.
Deena says, "I think that is so true Helen, they do tend to pick up great domains at cheap prices :)"
Helen says, "I don't think you can separate the two terms on the Web / in new media."
Deena says, "Our guest tonight is Nisar from the FineArt forum. . . "
Deena says, "FineArt forum is the longest running arts magazine on the Internet. Highly regarded by the international professional new media arts and technology communities, FineArt forum helps to maintain the high profile position that Australia occupies in this important field of the arts. "
Deena says, "We wanted to look at ways that art and lit are combining on the web and in electronic realms. . . "
Helen says, "And Paul Brown is on the Incubation committee as it happens, and also involved in FineArt forum!"
Deena says, "And brainstorm ways to get our communities together."
Deena says, "Ahhh all the lovely connections!"
Deena says, "Nisar, could you tell us about FineArt forum?"
Nisar says, "Thanks for the delightful introduction Deena."
Deena hands round more warm drinks and cool margaritas and art viewing gallery glasses.
Deena applauds Nisar loudly for getting up at 4 am to join us and admires his dedication to the cause!!!
Nisar says, "Sure. well FineArt forum is an e newsletter that originated in the US in 1987"
Helen says, "A venerable institution indeed!"
Deena thinks that that is about 187 years in internet years. . .
Nisar says, "By Ray Lauzanna and it was based in Mississippi State University till 1992. "
Symbolic Guest arrives.
Deena says, "Hi Symbolic_Guest, we are talking with Nisar about the FineArt forum and ways to converge electronic lit and art"
Nisar says, "Paul Brown was on a professorship there and brought it back with him to Australia. "
Helen says, "Ah, I thought he got around!"
Nisar says, "Its now based in Queensland Uni of Tech. "
Nisar says, "I became involved with FineArt forum since 1998. "
Nisar says, "And Paul is the editor, took on the exec editor role. Thanks to an Australia council grant, we now have an ozzie editor. and I now work from Singapore. "
Deena says, "In the 4 years you have been involved, how have you seen art changing on the net?"
Nisar says, "Well it's a constantly changing field. "
Helen says, "Truly international!"
Nisar says, "And it's grown. We are still making threads. "
Deena says, "Anja, Helen, Robert, Loki, guests, how do you guys see trends in art and lit?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "I think the reason this might be the case is that literature alone is boring. People prefer pictures. And pictures themselves are boring. We are too dim-witted to give to a picture a narrative. "
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Humans are naturally very lazy beings. "
Nisar says, "Yes indeed so. "

Anja says, "Strangely, in Germany, there seems to be a trend that wants net-lit to be text only."
Helen says, "Really Anja? say more. . . "
Anja says, "There's the Netzliteratur-movement and right now they seem to prefer lit to be text only - Karlsruhe is a whole nother story"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Oh, my god, buzzwords I've never heard of !"
Deena says, "Yeah, what is Netzliteratur-movement?"
Anja says, "Netzliteratur is a mailing-list dedicated to, well literature on the net. The community is pretty small round here"
Anja says, "I'm not really close to Netzliteratur. "
Deena says, "Anja, yet the Karlsruhe DMZ shows so much intertwining of physical art, electronic art and text. . . "
Anja says, "Karlsruhe has a lot of international stuff"
Deena says, "Ahh. . . I hadn't realized that, Anja. "
Deena says, "Anja, what are the motives behind moving to text only in lit. . . "
Anja says, "Deena, I am not at all for limiting digital literature to alphanumerics."
Deena says, "Yeah, me neither Anja. Just wondered about the motivation behind it. Maybe a purer aesthetic or something?"
Anja says, "As I said - I'm not close to the text-only guys, I really can't say."
Deena says, "Yeah, I'll have to have them on a chat to grill them, Anja. Please send their URL, email"
Anja says, "Deena, I just made a note . . . "
Deena says, "Thanks Anja"
Nisar says, "The thing I find most intriguing is only have a 14 inch monitor to send your message/concept/idea. And its really hard work. "
Deena says, "Yes, Nisar, how does the 14 inch monitor limit the message/concept/idea?"
Helen says, "Ooh, do you still have 14 inch? we are moving from 15 to 17 inch here now, I don't think less than 15 inch mm"
Nisar says, "Well. I have 1 14 inch. but that's one of the challenges FineArt forum constantly faces. Trying to reach out to everyone out there. "
Deena hand round 50 inch monitors to all.
Deena says, "Nisar, how is electronic art reaching everyone out there?"
Nisar says, "Not as well as it could. It's still quite a new art form. "
Deena says, "Robert, do you see elit giving pictures a narrative?"
Nisar says, "Like Robert says, people prefer pictures. "
Deena says, "How do the pictures help present the idea/concept? and how does text influence pictures?"
Anja says, "Pictures - that requires a different sort of literacy most of us didn't grow up with"
Nisar says, "From what I see, the human interface sometimes is essential. . . because you sometimes need a human intro before someone gets real
keen to understand your work. "
Loki93c says, "True"
Deena says, "Nisar, how do you see everyone gaining a graphic literacy--a common way to interpret art and images?"
Deena says, "Nisar, how does that human interface work?"
Nisar says, "Well. I think the way to go is to look within your environment. . . . and what's close to you. culture is the way to go. Most can
relate or are intrigued by it. . . "
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Pardon my sexism, here, but as a male I prefer to see the female in a story. I want to see a face. As nice as stories are, the natural tendency is to prefer a story loaded with extra's (multimedia effects) to minimalist presentations. "
Nisar says, "Geez. this is hard work - my first moo session you see ;)"
Deena hands Nisar a handkerchief to wipe his brow. .
Helen says, "Take your time Nisar. . . . "
Nisar says, "Thanks everyone. takes a sip of water. *pant pant*"
Deena hands round gatorade and pocari sweat and sport water
Deena says, "All, do you think we have a cultural or graphic literacy? How do we rely on this as writers and artists?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "And with ballets and expressionist paintings, I prefer subtitles, because I want to know what a picture is about. "
Nisar says, "Sometimes we forget that we need to touch the baser instinct of everyone?? How to get the message to everyone - if that's the intention that is. "
Deena says, "How does art touch the baser instincts in all? Can art transcend culture, text, expectations?"
Margaret arrives. Helen says, "Hi Margaret" Deena says, "Hi Margaret, we are looking at art and eliterature and how they work together."
Helen says, "Nisar, you're right about reaching people - I have started to write for the newbies, for people who have maybe not read new media before, to show how it works and how interesting it can be. I think we need to build an audience, and we need to push the boundaries AND make routed across new media work for the beginner."
Nisar says, "Is there much eliterature going on from where everyone comes from?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "To Nisar: not really. "
Nisar says, "Helen. can u tell us more about your work?"
Nisar says, "Robert: what is your opinion?"
Deena says, "Well, there is the ELO and trAce and some good conferences like Incubation and the ELO symposium, but honestly, eliterature is pretty much in its beginning stages right now. . .But it is amazing to see how elit is working with pictures (thinking of Water~Water~Water and Marjorie Luesebrink's Book of Going Forth by Day. . . "
Loki93c says, "Were still at the silent movie stage."
Deena says, "Loki, I have to agree. but we are also experimenting and having a lot of fun before settling into --horrors--a commercial genre."
Robert_Nagle_ says, "If anything, I think that most people surf the internet for news and humor, and chatting, not stories. That could easily change. "
Anja says, "I'm not a very visual person but I always have the impression that text dominates images when there are any"
Nisar says, "Its great to hear this. . "
Nisar says, "Is there any conference going on in Nov. -Dec in Europe in this field?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Oh, always a conference. "
Deena says, "Hmmm. I don't think so Nisar. Most of the upcoming ones are in the states, but Incubation is in the UK"
Nisar says, "When is incubation?"
Deena says, "In July 2002."
Symbolic_Guest says, "Hi - I am wondering what people mean by content - what is meaning- "
Deena says, "Good question, symbol. What do we mean by content, and how is content changed when text merges with art?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Content can be defined in terms of its deficiency. Content has to do with what we are primarily looking for in a work of art. Helen says, "I linked one of my pieces in my recent Web Warp and Weft with the cardigan I wear whenever I demonstrate it -- very visual AND
tactile (but the project IS about textiles and the Web!)"
Deena sees Helen as spilling out of the net and into real time. . .
Robert_Nagle_ says, "We say, well I liked all the special effects in that sci-fi film, but the story sucked. The story is the conten."
Nisar says, "Which film do u refer to Robert?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Oh, I'm talking generically. "
Helen says, "Robert, yes, art is nothing without content -- lit even more so"
Deena says, "Yes, how do we get ideas, stories, meaning across in both text and art?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "But what if the content that we are looking for is ambiguity? this is what visual artists get to - perhaps not so easy for you literature people."
Loki93c says, "Well, you can write as ambivalent."
Margaret says, "I agree but I do think sound is important. I am working on that at the moment"
Deena says, "Loki, what do you mean by ambivalent?"
Loki93c says, "One can write a narrative leaving the reader 2 decide on the characters intent"
Deena says, "All sound and no fury. . . all pictures and no meaning. . . all words and no story. . . "
Anja says, "Ah, always story and content . . . "
Symbolic_Guest says, "Ambiguity and ambivalence are not the same - visual artists play with the fact that imagery in the real world is always changing (you see the moon in the distance at night and then it turns out to be a street light)"
Helen says, "New media makes it easier to write about ambiguity -- I have an online novel that has ambiguity at the centre. It wouldn't work
as a print linear sequence."
Margaret says, "May I show you what I am working on Deena? It is definitely story"
Deena says, "Sure Margaret, is it up on the web? or do you want to email it to textra<at>chisp. net"
Editor's Note: This is Black Annis.
Robert_Nagle_ says, "In college, we were taught to appreciate characterization, styles, and to regard the story as not the main reason for enjoying a novel. funny, as time goes by, the mechanics of lit tends to bore me. "
Deena says, "Nisar, what trends have you seen in the electronic art field since 1998?"
Nisar says, "For one, it's emerging. You can see this from the support eliterature now gets. "
Deena says, "Thanks Nisar for the support:) All, have you seen support for elit growing?"
Nisar says, "Everyone here is up to interesting stuff. . amazing. "
Deena says, "Oh Nisar, we are a fun group of folks around here :) maybe we can do an article for FineArt forum;)"
Nisar says, "Sure thing Deena. I would love that to happen. "
Deena says, "How do you think the appreciating art and lit will be taught in future colleges?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "In the future there will be colleges? An incredible thought!"
Deena says, "Yeah, I keep assuming we will get over our current difficulties. optimist that I am ;)"
Helen says, "Online colleges like the one I'm helping to build :)"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Online learning communities. . . . oh. Yes, those will be around, to be sure!"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Talk about what you mean by ambiguity a little. "
Symbolic_Guest says, "Guess the ambiguity is directed at me - this is Cynthia Rubin - I think that I logged in wrong so my name is into showing
- anyway-"
Nisar says, "Hey Cynthia."
Nisar says, "I know u. . "
Deena says, "Hi all, I'd like to introduce our other guest, Cynthia Rubin from the ISEA. "
Deena is relieved to unmask her other chat guest of honor. . .
Robert_Nagle_ says, "ISEA?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "The lesson of the abstract expressionists is that we can create spatial tension on a flat surface, that we can break picture plane developed by the Renaissance painters - (hi Nisar)"
Deena says, "Founded in the Netherlands in 1990, ISEA is an international non-profit organization dedicated to the promotion and development
of the electronic arts. ISEA's membership and collaborators consist of a wide range of individuals and institutions involved in the creative, theoretical and technological aspects of the electronic arts. "
Deena says, "Cynthia, could you tell us about the ISEA, and where it is going and what it is up to?"
Helen says, "Hi Cynthia, love ISEA!"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "International Society for Elephant Administration?"
Anja says, "It's late here, so bye for now."
Helen says, "Bye Anja, sorry u can't stay"
Deena says, "Anja, thanks so much for coming!"
The housekeeper arrives to remove Anja.
Symbolic_Guest says, "Great to hear that ISEA is loved - and now we are working directly with FineArt forum;)"
Deena says, "How can we work more closely together?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "You mean with ISEA?"
Nisar says, "Sure thing Deena. I would love that to happen. "!"
Nisar says, "U betcha. . ;)"
Helen says, "OK, what are you doing? Together I mean!"
Deena says, "How can we form alliances between ELO, trAce and other lit groups and ISEA, FineArt forum and other art groups?"
Helen says, "Yes, Deena, exactly."
Nisar says, "Sharing of information and content is a start?"
Helen says, "We have Paul Brown on our conference committee, that's one thing -- we are trying to look beyond the word -- last year we had Stelarc and Scanner as keynotes"
Symbolic_Guest says, "An alliance would be great - Nisar has done a great job of helping us share information - now we need to share ideas."
Helen says, "We need to work more closely together -- artists and writers"
Nisar says, "All art groups are doing amazing stuff. if there is a way to connect and combine and share with each other that would be excellent."
Deena says, "Right, let's brainstorm some ways of connecting and combining. . . "
Nisar says, "Oh yes. that would be good. "
Deena says, "Our fields are merging, and the boundaries between art and lit are growing very faint indeed. "
Loki93c says, "Line failed"
Deena says, "Welcome back Loki"
Loki93c says, "Nice 2 b back"
Deena says, "Maybe a joint venture? A symposium showing where art and lit are joining?"
Nisar says, "One challenge FineArt forum faces is the task of finding varied information. and what's happening around the world. and also spotting artists and writers to feature. "
Deena says, "Yeah, Nisar, we have the same problem! I subscribe to netnews, rhizome, ELO, trAce, etc. but still can't keep up."
Symbolic_Guest says, "We had a panel at ISEA 1995 on new narratives - -it was so successful that a book is coming out of it."
Deena says, "Great. could you tell me the URL Cynthia?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "I can look for the URL - Martin Rieser is the editor - the panel was in Montreal, and we actually put people together
who did not know each other"
Helen says, "Photographers, performance artists, all sorts"
Helen says, "And there are the programmers of course. . . . . Computer programmers who make our art work technically."
Deena says, "How can we keep up in a field where so much is happening?"
Deena says, "Or excuse me, so many combining fields"
Helen says, "Was that the panel in Manchester?"
Deena says, "Helen, the programme for what?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Maybe there should be a rule that all writers should be required to be married to someone in another genre. "
Deena says, "Robert, wanna set up a matchmaker service for that?"
Deena says, "You could make some money there ;)"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "You know that probably wouldn't be hard...Marriage of convenience. "
Helen says, "Marriage of convenience -- wonder if the URL's gone?"
Deena says, "Yeah, we need a collaborator database, at the very least--who can do what, who is interested in what. "
Symbolic_Guest says, "That would be great - finding collaborators is so hard "
Nisar says, "Deena. most orgs have listings. but the problem is having a comprehensive one no?"
Deena says, "Maybe something like. . . name, previous works, interests, skills, interested in working on projects such as. . . "
Deena says, "Can FineArt forum or ISEA set up a database like that?"
Helen says, "The knack is in finding the keywords to describe things for people working in different fields."
Deena says, "Yes, Helen, trAce has a few keywords from the trAce online competition. . . "
Symbolic_Guest says, "ISEA can sponsor someone to do a data-base - we have no money, but we let other groups use our name to look for funds
Nisar says, "Would it be possible to keep in touch with the crowd here via email?"
Deena says, "Like a jam session. . . "
Deena says, "Good question Nisar, we can provide emails. . . "
Helen says, "Nisar, you should join ELO and trAce -- they're free, and get the newsletters"
Deena says, "I don't have Loki, or Roberts. . . "
Loki93c says, "Loki93c<at>cybercide. co. uk
Nisar says, "That would be great Deena. emails is a good idea. "
Deena says, "Ok, I will set up an email so we can email each other. . . "
Nisar says, "Thanks Deena. "
Robert_Nagle_ says, "I guess person-to-person interactions are more important for collaboration. "
Symbolic_Guest says, "I don't know if person to person is necessary if people can meet at some point "
Deena says, "Robert, yes. How do we get person to person interactions through these different fields?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Just as online matchmaking rarely works out, it's maybe a little optimistic to believe that one can collaborate with
those one doesn't know. On the other hand, maintaining prior contacts can be facilitated by online networking. Especially because these are probably noncommercial collaborations."
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Think about the online story "The Unknown. "
Deena says, "Right, Robert, we are all doing this for the love of our art and sacrificing for it. . . good to keep in mind. "
Symbolic_Guest says, "How do we determine similar interests? Are we back to content?"
Deena says, "Great question Cynthia. I think we are back to content. . and form. . . which is like content. "
Helen says, "A workspace -- we are applying for funding for this kind of thing -- but it takes years"
Deena says, "How can we facilitate online networking and keep up in these fields?"
Helen says, "We were talking about this very thing at Net. Work Day last weekend -- a face to face meeting"
Nisar says, "FineArt forum can do the same. . . we are constantly looking out for new projects and ideas. "
Deena says, "Can we set up a face to face? an interdisciplinary conference?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "I could see That project put out and allowing a group of people to add to it. Maybe each person could perform a different function. "
Deena says, "Or work within an existing conference?"
Helen says, "An online collaboration space where people could dabble and find out about the work of the people they might want to go away and
work with"
Deena says, "Robert, That would be great. "
Deena says, "Yes, and there is software for online collaboration--Groove, others. "
Robert_Nagle_ says, "It's amazing How much "Helping collaboration" is possible through bulletin boards. But not really "Creative work."
Loki93c says, "Why not a web cam meeting? why does it have 2 be in the Here & Hard? we work in cyberspace after all."
Symbolic_Guest says, "There is still the possibility to this in Japan at next year's ISEA - the call for proposals has just gone out."
Deena says, "Sure, could we do a webcam meeting within the ISEA for networking with lit folks and art folks?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Yes - this would be a great proposal."
Helen says, "Again, it IS a strand at Incubation. We expect Scanner back again, for example, he is working in sound."
Deena says, "Cynthia, what is the URL for the CFP for ISEA?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Call for ISEA is at:"
Loki93c says, "Im amazed we still bother to travel when we can internet"
Deena says, "Terrific. Helen, do you have the URL for Incubation? Could we make That strand known in the art community as well as the lit
Helen says, "With FineArt forum, ELO, ISEA and trAce we should be able to get something rolling. . . . . apply for funds even."
Robert_Nagle_ says, "You know this sounds crazy. But having audio can make a difference. Audio for chatting and forums. "
Helen says, "trAce has an experimental sound bulletin board"
Nisar says, "Yes indeed - Helen. this is possible. "
Loki93c says, "We should do a lot more of this stuff online and a lot less airporting"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Airporting?!! I love that gerund!"

Deena says, "Yeah, we'll need someone to write the proposal, get the grants, do the CFP. . . where can we get volunteers to help out?"
Deena says, "Audio meetings at the physical conferences help a great deal. maybe we can set up at Incubation and ISEA and ELO symposium
Deena says, "Who wants to put together a proposal? And what would we include?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Forming a group that then meets at different conferences is a good idea "
Deena says, "Yeah, a central group that could be a clearinghouse for all the news, collaborations, etc. . . "
Helen says, "Yes, ELO symposium in April, Incubation in July and ISEA in October -- good spread across next year."
Deena says, "Would be good to have a continuity at ALL these conferences."
Loki93c says, "And updated in real time at every conference?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "And then eventually many people would meet - as through the years many visual artists meet up at various places."
Deena says, "Right. updated in real time and meeting in real time with different folks. "

Helen says, "I can't go to ISEA -- I am teaching at Arvonthat week :("
Helen says, "But let's link in the Arvon students!!!"
Deena says, "Helen, that would be a perfect way to do the Arvon chat next year. . . to link to one of these conferences. "
Symbolic_Guest says, "What where is Arvon?"
Helen says, "The Arvon Foundation runs the most prestigious residential writing courses in the UK. I teach Writing for the Internet there on a hill in
Yorkshire: Ted Hughes old home just up from Sylvia Platt's grave"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Wow - it would be great to link up with Arvon."
Nisar says, "Where is Arvon based?"
Helen says, "Arvon has one house in West Yorkshire and one in Devon, soon one in Shropshire."
Helen says, "It's coming together"

Deena cheers the connections and hands round ribbons of enthusiasm
Loki93c says, "Some of us would need 2 be there on line. Rather than physically."
Deena says, "Yeah, we would have to set up an online moo connection."
Deena says, "Would ISEA, ELO, trAce, FineArt forum be able to get a group together to come up with a proposal and get it to all these conferences?"
Deena says, "I think the theme could be just collaboration, networking and merging in these fields. . . show what is new, How people are getting
together, and what the possibilities for future collaboration are. . . "
Nisar says, "I am sure setting up a group. maintaining interest and making the project happen - is the key ;)"
Margaret says, "But for serious online collaborative work you need an application with one common screen and several user dedicated ones.
Otherwise one person dominates, which is not true collaboration."
Deena says, "Yeah, this is just to spark the beginning of a flame of collaboration. . "
Helen says, "We can all be the founding committee, co-opt others. We have a mailing list core right here. . . ."
Loki93c says, "E-merge-Ent"
Deena says, "Right and trAce has a great bulletin board system in place."

Deena says, "We have a lot of resources here. . . "
Nisar says, "FineArt forum can get the msg out . . "
Helen says, "Yes. . . "
Loki93c says, "'Im a reseller, I have loads of webspace we can use anyway."
Symbolic_Guest says, "We can link from the ISEA web site"
Nisar says, "And ISEA JP can be host?"
Helen says, "We have everything we need then. . . . "
Deena says, "University of Virginia has webspace too--we can coordinate with Loki :)"
Deena says, "So How will we keep this thread going?"
Loki93c says, "Neat, I can offer bulletin boards space etc no problem"
Helen says, "We will link too"
Nisar says, "Would be it be possible to everyone to intro themselves -- briefly?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "We are moving our main ISEA web site to the Netherlands - we should have room - but it would be better to link to
another site"
Deena says, "Great. can you set up a bulletin board/database?"
Deena says, "Or do we know folks who can?"
Deena says, "We are looking at a bulletin board for announcements, news and then a meeting space within the 3 conferences, incubation, ELO, and
Loki93c says, "I can yes"
Deena says, "Terrific! claps Loki on the back :)"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Annick Bureau started a data base several years ago for visual and sound artists called IDEA - it would be good to involve her, and Joel Chaddabee from EMF as well."
Deena says, "Right, Loki, working with Joel and Annick may save some time and we won't have to reinvent the wheel. . . "
Helen says, "Incubation already has its own board. . . "
Loki93c says, "Can u give me about ten days 2 set it up/"
Deena says, "Yes, maybe we can just expand that database. . . "
Deena says, "Can you send me their email addresses, Cynthia?"
Loki93c says, "True Helen, but its massive"
Helen says, "There are lots of people and lists to send announcements too -- we can collaborate on that. . . post details to the bulletin board as a central point"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Sure - Annick might even help work on this. "
Loki93c says, "This could just be for this"
Deena says, "ELO has a database of electronic works, we can probably get info from there, too. . "
Helen says, "This needs a list of words, of terms, of descriptors that people can use when seeking collaborators -- we need to compile the
list as soon as the board is set up -- one of the first jobs."
Symbolic_Guest says, "There are some tough issues in data bases: language (do we limit it to English); content (How do we define this?) and
various other cultural assumptions."
Helen says, "We cannot limit language, but we will have to all be prepared to translate as we go."
Deena says, "Yes, considering that this will be an international thing, Helen. We should probably have a place to define terms. There are so many terms for these things and we don't have a steady lingo yet! I say elit, you say electron, I say art, you say image. . . ""
Symbolic_Guest says, "So a data-base has to list what languages each person reads."
Helen says, "Yes, Cynthia"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Deena - good point- artists always talk about imagery for content and others talk about pictures, Imagery being more
concrete than the picture, and I suspect that imagery in literature is more abstract."
Deena says, "Good point Cynthia"
Loki93c says, "I am using the Systran translator, its rough but works okay"
Deena says, "Which system translator?"
Loki93c says, "Systran. . . it's a freebie but it works"
Margaret says, "Where do you get it from Loki?"
Loki93c says, "Off a PC Pro cover disc I think. I think you can get it at cnet. com downloads too."

Deena hands round a refreshing Pocari sweat and more margaritas.
Nisar says, "Is there a central location where all these lists and resources are linked?"
Deena says, "Not that I know of..."
Deena says, "Yes, it would still be good to have a list of lists for announcements--and a central place would be great for news. "
Loki93c says, "Okay, can someone e-mail me all relevant e-mail addresses of u all so I can coordinate this?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Loki93c - who are you and what is your email address?"
Deena says, "Yes, please send me the URLS and email addresses and I will send out an email to all involved to help coordinate"
Loki93c says, "Loki93c<AT>"
Nisar says, "FineArt forum launches a resources page next year. . we could look into including relevant URLs there?"
Deena says, "That would be a great place to post URLS. and the more cross posting the better. "
Helen says, "Isn't the ELO symposium organised by now? Will they be able to fit in the "Launch" of this service?
Deena says, "Helen, yes, I can check with Scott Rettberg on that. . . "
Deena says, "We have brainstormed a lot of ideas and need to continue these conversations!"
Helen says, "Marriageofconvenience. org is available!"
Robert_Nagle_ Robert, distracted by the URL's mentioned above and humming along to an old Hindi tune, slips out of the room quietly and
unobtrusively, hoping that the other people in the room are too busy to notice the sudden whooshing of air behind him"
Deena laughs at the URL, but thinks that that would be fun. says thanks for coming Robert
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Goodbye all. I keep forgetting to come to these chats. " I'll try to come more often!"
Deena says, "ROBERT, we are doing program chats on the third Sunday of each month and chats on the other Sundays"
Nisar says, "Bye Robert"
Deena says, "Ok, can we sum up our promises here before we head out?"
Deena says, "I'll collate the URLs, emails and send out letters saying what are we doing."
Helen says, "Bye Robert nice to see you again!"
Symbolic_Guest says, "I will work on getting ISEA excited about this"
Nisar says, "I think this has been very fruitful :-)"
Loki93c says, "Ill set up a bulletin board if you want?"
Deena says, "Get info at trAce or http://www. eliterature. org/"
Margaret says, "Thanks Loki"
Deena says, "Yes, please, that will be a good place to coordinate actions"
Loki93c says, "Good, I'll sort out Moderator access for some of you (no offence to others)"
Helen says, "I think that's a great idea -- a panel with an online component <nodding at Loki>"
Deena says, "great, Cynthia. We can work on getting a plan for all 3 conferences to have a thread on collaborating with art and lit."
Deena says, "I'll check with ELO on the symposium and get back with a proposal. . . "
Nisar says, "Curious: does anyone here work full-time in the art/tech field?"
Deena says, "Wish I did, Nisar, In real life, I'm a technical writer. . . "
Loki93c says, "Im a website designer by day, and Loki93c by night. . . . . . lol"
Helen says, "I work for trAce -- does that count?"
Nisar says, "Oh yes. Helen is the most fortunate. I teach by day. . . "
Helen says, "I am VERY fortunate -- but it is a difficult business keeping ourselves going. . .
Deena says, "WE all have such busy lives--yet I am glad that elit and e art have such an allure that we can devote our passion to it. . . "
Helen says, "And we do teach :)"
Symbolic_Guest says, "I teach part-time - I couldn't keep up with the kids when I tried actually producing commercial stuff."
Symbolic_Guest says, "Is any one already planning to submit a literature based proposal to ISEA?"
Deena says, "Helen, can anyone at trAce help with this type of proposal?"
Nisar says, "FineArt forum' definitely keen too. I can rope in some asian/singapore support/connections. "
Helen says, "The mix is very good. . . . . "
Deena says, "Great. we can consider this a really great spark to fan some flames of collaboration--this could be the start of something
Deena passes around pre-celebratory champagne and the inevitable parting glass of Guinness. . .
Margaret says, "Will there be a log of this I had a telephone call in the middle."
Deena says, "Yep, I will have the log at http://www. eliterature. org/ in the next week or so, Margaret. Click on community. " "
Helen says, "Deena we must send the log to Sue and see what she comes up with -- she knows a lot of people, but it is already too late for a
lot of grant applications"
Deena says, "Ok, I will send the log to Sue and Scott and see what we can come up with on their ends."
Helen says, "Sue Thomas is the artistic Director of trAce"
Nisar says, "Who is Sue?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "The problem is that we need time to obsess over trivia in order to break new ground - and only the academic world
supports that."
Deena says, "Well, maybe we can avoid some of the trivia by keeping it simple--a bulletin board for news and an online panel at conferences for collaboration. . . "
Helen says, "Nisar and Cynthia can circulate their people :)"
Margaret says, "If there is anyone short of space I have two sites which anyone with a password can use but I would need references."
Loki93c says, "Well, you can have the b/board on me to save funds."
Deena says, "'Terrific. these artists and writers are always starving and short of funds :)"
Loki93c says, "It's the least I can do after all this scene has done 4 me"
Deena claps Loki on the back and says he is a jolly good fellow.
Loki93c says, "I'll have 2 reopen cybercide again now. . . . . lol"
Deena says, "Don't go committing too many cybercides, Loki, we probably need you out of cyberjails. . . "
Loki93c says, "Lol. . . nahm I had 2 close my site."
Helen says, "Why did you close it Loki? I went looking for it."
Loki93c says, "Someone claimed it was THEIR work can u believe!"
Deena says, "No, Loki, do you have the URL"
Loki93c says, "Im moving it 2 a new website Deena"
Deena says, "Loki, send me the new URL--Thanks. "
Helen says, "Loki, you'll have to tell me about it sometime soon -- I'm researching copyright on the Net."
Loki93c says, "It's a nightmare Helen. . cheers for C & N"

Helen says, "We'll end up needing a website to output the database."
Deena hands round a glass of Guinness/genius for the roads.
Nisar says, "Cynthia. r u involved with creative writing - the conference?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Nisar - I am not sure what you mean - ME or ISEA?"
Deena says, "Anything else we want to go over before officially wrapping up? You all are welcome to stay and chat, but I wanna make sure we
have all official business as covered as we can in this initial foray. . . "
Nisar says, "Cynthia - u. "
Nisar says, "Anyone heard of caraways?"
Deena says, "I also want to say three cheers and hooray for Cynthia and Nisar to come and venture into our bizarre little world. . . "
Nisar says, "Thanks Deena. its been very enlightening. "
Deena says, "Thanks for coming and opening up the doors for future collaboration and cooperation between these wonderful ventures, FineArt forum, ISEA, ELO, and trAce."
Nisar says, "A chat that's turned into an international collaborative project ;)"
Helen says, "(Isn't that another Cynthia?)"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Thanks - this has been great"
Margaret says, "Bye everyone"
Deena says, "Great, glad we could meet your expectations. . "
Symbolic_Guest says, "I am the Cynthia who has some web sites linked off the trAce site"
Loki93c says, ":-))"
Deena says, "Ahh. ok, the connections thicken then :)"
Helen says, "Darn , I just missed someone from Oslo in the other chat room -- could have been another international dimension!"
Nisar says, "U bet. . . . this is amazing. "
Nisar says, "Cynthia - r u connected with Affinities?"
Deena says, "Nisar, we have a lot of fun here--I will send you the calendar for future trAce/ELO chats, maybe you can put it in FineArt forum. . . . Nisar says, "Yes Deena. definitely . . please do send it along. I can email you our deadlines. "
Deena says, "Glad we could start off your Monday in an amazing way :0"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Yes - the same Cynthia - I do all the 2D ambiguous imagery in all forms"
Symbolic_Guest says, "My web site: http://cbrubin. net/ (my site memoirs is a visual hyper-text)"
Deena says, "All these connections we miss. I am at"
Helen says, ""
Nisar says, ""
Helen says, "And trAce.ntu of course!"
Nisar says, "Aaaah ok - glad we could meet online. "
Deena says, "Ahhh now I know you. . I like affinities very much. "
Deena says, "Yes, please email me the deadlines. "
Nisar says, "Is there a way to chat online like this on moo somewhere??"
Deena says, "Yes, this moo is always open and we can log, or whatever. Also trAce has an IRC that we can use."
Nisar says, "It's so quick. "
Nisar says, "Btw - everyone. FineArt forum's put together a travelling screen in prog. It screens in Manila tomorrow"
Deena says, "That would be interesting. . . A travelling screen program would be great. we are doing travelling ereadings. . . should coordinate!"
Nisar says, "WHAT!!!! i didnt know that. "
Deena says, "Yeah, ELO has been really tring hard to get readings in different cities. Did Chicago last week. "
Deena says, "We need to get some good form of communication going, huh? I didn't know about the travelling screens. . . "
Helen says, "How'd it go? Do you know?"
Nisar says, "Deena - we shld work on this. "
Deena says, "I think it went pretty well, I don't know directly. . . "
Deena says, "Yep. I'll email you and Scott to get on this together. . .Scott is our ELO director. "
The housekeeper arrives to cart Margaret off to bed.
Loki93c says, "I have 2 depart, night all, keeep me posted please"
Nisar says, "Nite Loki"
Symbolic_Guest says, "ISEA decided to team up with FineArt forum to do the calendar - they have all the experience - and are dong a great job!"
Nisar says, "Kool. this is sounding very good. "
Helen says, "Must go, got lots to do and it's my bedtime!"
Nisar says, "Thanks for that Cynthia ;)"
Deena says, "But imagine if we could team up to do the calendar with ISEA and FineArt forum . . . "
Deena says, "We have so much we can do you guys!"
Helen says, "Bring em all to incubation please!"
Nisar says, "Very possible Deena. "
Deena says, "Let's continue all the enthusiasm in emails and connections and calendars and conferences !"
Nisar says, "Aaah i cant get away for incubation. "
Helen says, "We have been trying to put together a troupe to perform web-work and hypertext."
Deena says, "Good idea Helen, we shall try. . . "
Symbolic_Guest says, "Sounds good - "
Deena says, "Maybe we can get the screens to incubation if we can't get Nisar. . . "
Helen says, "I am going to create a human hypertext in Edinburgh in March. . . . "
Deena says, "Oh wow!!!"
Helen says, "Creativity in Question"
Nisar says, "Helen. . you should send us highlights of this work. "
Deena says, "Nisar, Cynthia, this is why it would be good to get us together--we could at least keep each other informed of interesting and fun happenings"
Helen says, "I'm inspired by Deena's working methods!"
Nisar says, "I AGREE Deena. . . "
Helen says, "Anyway, look forward to hearing more from you all. REALLY great to meet you!"
Deena says, "But we can keep going off chat and in asynchronous time--don't think you've heard the last of us ;)"
Nisar says, "Glad to hear there'll be a sequel ;)"
Deena says, "Good night and good morning to all and sundry--I'll work
on the log, emails, etc. please send textra<at>
Helen says, "OK, bye all. . . "
Deena says, "We may even do a follow up chat, let's see where we get to. . We can always set up another meeting. . . "
Helen has disconnected.
Deena says, "Bye Helen, bye all"
Nisar says, "I wld like that very much"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Bye all - looking forward to follow-up"
Deena says, "Thanks again for coming:)"
Nisar says, "Bye cynthia. nie to tok in real time :P"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Yes - until next time"
Deena says, "To quit, type @quit or close your browser, Nisar. Have fun
all. "
The housekeeper arrives to cart everyone off to bed.

-- End log: Monday, November 19, 2001 8:19:54 am CST


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