Chat Transcript: Sunday December 3, 2000
Wendy Morgan
Educational relevance of hypertext literature

In at least two states of Australia, hyperfictions are specified as possible texts or as forms for student writing. How are we using hyperfictions both in and out of the classroom? Why are we teaching hyperfictions and what is the role of new media fiction in the schools? How are preservice / inservice teachers learning to read and write and teach this stuff--and what uses are they putting it to? Wendy Morgan has been working with undergraduate teacher education students over several years, introducing them to hyperfiction and literary theory.

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-- Start log: Sunday, December 3, 2000 2:50:58 p.m. CST

Wendy as Oxymoron quietly enters.

Deena hugs Wendy

Deena says, "Thanks for showing up on this bright morning!"

Deena says, "Were you waiting long?"

Oxymoron hugs Deena back.

Oxymoron says, "Nah - just casing the joint!"

Deena says, "We have the discussion announcement in the general elit chat links"

Deena says, "You can share URLs by typing @URL http://www.whatever"

grubelflexx arrives.

Oxymoron says, "I saw that."

Deena says, "Hi Grubelflexx"

grubelflexx says, "Hi Deena"

Oxymoron says, "Hi too, Grubelflexx"

grubelflexx says, "Hey oxy, guess I'm a bit early"

Oxymoron says, "Then so am I. You're always punctual?"

Margaret quietly enters.

Deena says, "Hi Margaret"

Oxymoron says, "Hi Margaret. "

grubelflexx says, "No, but this is a great topic"

grubelflexx says, "Hi Margaret"

Deena nods and hands out relevance cookies

Oxymoron says, "Glad you think so. Any particular interest in it?"

MerryD arrives from Courtyard

Oxymoron takes a cookie.

Margaret says, "Hi everyone"

Oxymoron says, "Thanks Deena."

grubelflexx says, "Yup -- I teach HT: Theory & Practice course"

Deena says, "Why don't we start by introducing ourselves: What do you do? DO you teach ht?"

grubelflexx says, "Ta, Deena"

Salmon breezes in.

Margaret says, "Hello everyone. I am a member of trace"

Salmon smiles.

Deena hands round never ending glasses of wine and never empty plates of cheese

1 arrives.

grubelflexx says, "OK, I teach at a small Cdn university, in the Comm Studies Dept. where I teach CMC and HT, as well as virtual communities and cyber ID"

Deena says, "Hi Margaret, 1, Salmon, all. We are introducing ourselves"

Oxymoron says, "I'm Wendy Morgan. I teach hypertext to undergraduate teacher education students, who'll go out to teach secondary English. I try to turn them on to hyperfiction, in reading and writing, and suggest ways they might use this with their students."

grubelflexx says, "Glub, salmon"

Deena says, "I am Deena Larsen, hosting the chat, I love hypertext, but have not yet taught a course in it... "

Oxymoron says, "I should also add that I've been instrumental in infiltrating public syllabi in my state of Queensland Australia."

Margaret says, "No I haven't taught it either, Deena. "

Deena says, "Wendy Morgan is our guest speaker today, as an oxymoron :)"

JennyL. quietly enters.

grubelflexx admits to being Barry Joe at Brock University in Niagara

MerryD says, "I am about to guest-teach hypertext/weblit on a teacher training course."

Salmon says, "I'm Katherine Parrish. I taught Ghschool english for two years in Toronto and am now doing a masters in ed. specializing in computers apps. I'm very very excited about this topic."

grubelflexx says, "Hi Jenny L"

KLynB quietly enters.

KLSalmon [to grubelflexx]: I did a year of studies at Brock!

grubelflexx says, "No! At the Fac of Ed?"

Deena says, "Hi KLyn, glad you could join us. "

JennyL. [to grubelflexx]: Hi! I am very new at conversing in a MOO, so bear with me, I'm slow.

Deena says, "No problem Jenny, just press "To type a message and :to type an action"

Salmon [to grubelflexx]: nah.. just some random courses to fill out my degree. It was favulus.

grubelflexx says, "Salmon, any German crs?"

Salmon is from St. Catharines. Salmon shakes her head at grubelflexx.

ceball arrives.

Margaret says, "Helen Message Hi Helen Why are you keeping quiet?"

Oxymoron says, "So we've actually got quite a range of experience here. Have Education faculty been slow on the uptake, as I think they are, relative to Humanities and Media Studies etc?"

MerryD says, "I am here to listen to Wendy and LEARN I hope"

Deena says, "Yes, Wendy, all--what is the political context of teaching ht at universities?"

Deena extends a warm welcome to all and is thrilled so many are interested in teaching ht and why we should teach it.

MerryD says, "Humanities AND education very slow but am trying hard to get through to them."

JennyL. says, "I'm pursuing a Masters in a Teaching Writing Program. I teach at a high school where no one has even heard of hypertext yet (except maybe my inventive students)."

Dane quietly enters.

Deena says, "Hi Dane, we are introducing ourselves and talking about the context of teaching ht--have people heard of ht in your departments, in your lives, etc..."

Dane says, "hi"

Oxymoron says, "It's variable - there's a bit being done in creative writing courses. Here in Australia we don't have a tradition of composition courses - and I think that's kept the profile of hypertext rather low."

grubelflexx says, "I find it is generational, the Great Divide between scribal and digital gens"

Oxymoron says, "Jenny - I think that's great if you're able to learn from your students."

Salmon founds great resistance even amongst her peers when she brought up the idea of hypertext during her B. ed. studies.

Oxymoron says, "In my experience, many of my preservice teaching students are pretty conservative and scared of new text forms."

nm ducks in.

Deena says, "Yes, Jenny Love did a wonderfully funny piece about trying to get tenure in ht in a lit department..."

Salmon nods her head off at wendy.

JennyL. says, "Oxymoron - Yes, I think that is why I entered teaching - to learn something new everyday."

Oxymoron says, "So what's the reason for the divide then, if it's not age?"

grubelflexx says, "Perception of literature, entrenchment in a sense of what literature is...and then trying to map HT onto that old idea of literature."

Ev arrives.

Deena says, "Hi Ev, NM. We are talking about the way ht is perceived in universities."

Oxymoron says, "Is it a luxury of the securely established, to be willing to experiment? I agree about the influence of education."

ceball says, "Like what Jenny said, it's a willingness to still WANT to learn something new."

MerryD says, "Young people have a much broader view of literature/narrative/whatever, they're used to computer games and screen"

Salmon says, "And there's a certain conservatism amongst teachers in general, I find.. even the bright shiny ones."

Oxymoron says, "That's why I try to get at my Teacher ed students, while we're investigating what "literature" is, and how it's made by our reading practices."

grubelflexx says, "That's right Salmon. Try getting them to rethink their course curriculum!"

Deena says, "So are we talking about the climate in general in higher ed or is the climate of conservatism just around ht? How does higher ed react to new ideas in general?"

JennyL. says, "My two bits, and since I am recently a pre-service teacher... I think the education curriculum is overwhelming as it is. Perhaps learning and teaching ht doesn't seem realistic or practical. Consider - we are still trying to get down the classroom management thing."

Deena says, "Wendy, can you talk more about how you get students to address their reading practices? I think that may be the key to this accepting new kinds of lit bit..."

Oxymoron says, "Is this conservatism also due to course constraints, official syllabi too?"

grubelflexx says, "That is what most would have us believe Oxymoron. But I think it is a phobia of sorts"

MerryD says, "You have to relate it to their syllabuses and the syllabuses they will teach"

Oxymoron says, "OK Deena - we start from scratch, not taking anything for granted about what this beast deemed "literature" is."

Deena says, "That sounds like a very valuable approach Oxymoron/Wendy. "

Oxymoron says, "We examine our reading practices, test the limits of our (questionable) categories, experiment in reading and writing unconventional fictions, look at them in relation to recent literary theories etc."

Oxymoron says, "I should add that in my state of Queensland, there's a syllabus excuses too. In New South Wales senior secondary students may (if their teachers choose!) study 'afternoon' as one of their texts for focused study. I'm not sure how many do this - but it's a very conservative state, educationally - dominated by a retrograde public examination system. By ironic contrast, in the "redneck" state of Queensland, all secondary English curricula are developed school by school. Teachers are encouraged to choose multimedia texts and hypertexts among those their students study. And in the senior secondary Literature syllabus, literary hypertexts are specified as a "Genre" and students are encouraged to write as well as read, in making responses to the guiding question: What is literature, and what reading practices constitute "it"?"

Margaret says, "So do you look at paper printed 'hyperlinks' too?"

Oxymoron says, "Not sure what you mean by paper printed hyperlinks Margaret."

Margaret says, "Stories where the reader can choose which page to go to."

Deena says, "How have the rest of your departments defined literature?"

Salmon [to Oxymoron]: Is there any interdisciplinary work that happens in this process? do the art and english and communications departments ever have the freedom to tackle this stuff together?

Oxymoron says, "OK - yes, we do that, and we look at postmodern children's books, and indigenous stories where there are several levels of narrative going on. And at film too... Sliding doors, Run Lola run."

Salmon makes plans to move to Australia. Deena follows right behind into the Aussie summer warmth and interdisciplinary cooperation

MerryD says, "Who managed to get all that included in the curriculum?"

Oxymoron says, "I have to admit that I was instrumental in getting this hypertext stuff into the curriculum."

ceball says, "How did you argue for its inclusion?"

Deena leads three cheers for Wendy for getting it into the curriculum!

MerryD cheers too

Deena says, "Yes, can you provide some hints for the rest of us in getting this into the curriculum?"

Oxymoron says, "Well, it was helped by the fact that this is an extension syllabus - not everyone opts for it. "

grubelflexx has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove grubelflexx.

Oxymoron says, "My hint is - get rid of public exams!"

ceball says, "I guess I'm leaning towards what makes HT important to you, enough to fight for it to be in the public schools?"

Oxymoron says, "... But we've been moving in secondary English to a recognition of sociocultural constructedness of language - so it was an easy step from there to look at reading and writing practices."

Deena says, "It seems as if the conservatism comes from predefined syllabi and exams. Has anyone else found this?"

JennyL. says, "Oxymoron - what do you mean by "public exams" - do you mean state mandated?""

Dane says, "Do the students produce their own hypertexts?"

Oxymoron says, "Yes, the students do write hyperfictions and commentary on texts they're reading."

Deena says, "Right Cheryl. What do the rest of you think: Why are we teaching hyperfictions and what is the role of new media fiction in the schools? "

Dane says, "What format?"

Oxymoron says, "I think they're useful in opening up outdated conceptions of what narrative is, for starters."

Deena says, "Dane, in which classes? Are folks here teaching composition courses where students write their own, and lit courses where students read ht? What kind of classes are we teaching?"

JennyL. says, "Oxymoron - do you have your students publish their hypertexts? If so, I would love to see some samples - you know, what can I reasonably expect students to produce.""

Oxymoron says, "Dane - they use either web based hypertext editors, or Storyspace - sometimes hypermedia programs."

Salmon says, "I think it's so exciting to let our high school students know that a whole new genre is being born in their generation.. such a huge shift.."

Oxymoron says, "Yes, I should put them on our course home page. "

Deena cheers this huge shift with Salmon and is thrilled she is around to watch it.

Dane says, "I'd love to see what they were doing."

ceball says, "What HT are your students reading?"

Deena says, "Yes, who else is teaching ht composition?"

Oxymoron says, "I think that many of us recognise that hypertext is a way of representing the world that many of us feel "fits" with our perception of multiplicity in ourselves and our world."

ceball says, "I used to teach HT composition, but in a regular comp. class. Now I'm trying to figure out how to use HT in more of a mode-writing class."

Margaret thinks hypertext is a useful way of choosing what to skip.

ceball likes the idea of skipping.

MerryD says, "What's mode-writing?"

JennyL. says, "ceball - when you say regular comp. class - are you referring to "regular" high school students - or college?""

Deena wants to hear more from Margaret about how hypertexts help people choose what to skip

Oxymoron says, "I find that most of my preservice students love writing hypertext fictions and collages, and "hate" reading much of the stuff. They're not experienced in reading postmodern fiction and they get perplexed. But they love the freedom of writing not in straight lines."

ceball [to Margaret]: Although I tend to call HT composition in terms of lyric essays, to avoid the idea that skipping may mean leaving something out to those conservative people.

Deena says, "Wendy, I think what is great about your program is that you are teaching teachers --thus reaching many more classrooms. When the students get their own classrooms, do they get back with you about their experiences in teaching ht?"

Oxymoron says, "Agreed - and it's already paying off with many of my ex-students."

ceball [to JennyL.]: regular composition classes, I mean freshman level (college) composition classes that weren't specifically designed for HT writing, but I made them that way.

Salmon nods.::would=20

Oxymoron says, "Yes, some of them do - some don't have an opportunity in schools, where there's limited access to computers etc. - or retrograde heads of English etc."

Deena says, "Going back to the earlier point about loving to write ht and hating to read it--have the rest of you found the same thing? What are students reactions to reading and writing ht?"

Margaret says, "What are composition classes? (culture difficulty)"

Oxymoron says, "That North American distinction between lit and comp is one that's foreign to Australia - for better or worse."

Salmon wonders about the logistics of teaching a work of ht fiction to a lit. class.. How do you move through the text together as a group?

Deena says, "Margaret, I think composition courses are where students focus on writing their own work. In the comp courses that I have taken, we read to understand writing and techniques, and then practice those techniques. Like writers workshops...."

ceball [to Margaret]: composition classes are essentially courses geared towards getting students to write essays, whether they be personal essays or research-based essays (depending on the school's pedagogy, etc.) Mode-writing, as I call it, is more like writing an argument paper, then a response paper, then a...etc.=20

Deena hastens to add that there are the two kinds of composition courses--writing fiction and writing essays...

Margaret is grateful for the definition

Deena says, "Good point, Salmon. How have you tackled teaching hts? What kinds of questions can you ask of a text where people have skipped around?"

Oxymoron says, "Ha, Salmon -that's precisely the point. That brings you up short about your assumptions about what you do round a text in a lit class. I get my students to write a letter to a future student, "selling" the text and explaining how they navigated round in it."

Deena says, "Wendy, yes--the expectations of HOW we teach are VERY ingrained."

Oxymoron says, "And I think that this teaching practice of group discussion leads to a convergent reading of a text, and the perpetuation of a particular way of reading."

Deena says, "Do you show other kinds of exercises for your students to use in their classrooms?"

Haimish slinks in (either through a tear in the space-time continuum or, more likely, through a window that should have been barred).

Deena says, "How are preservice / inservice teachers learning to read and write and teach hypertexts--and what uses are they putting it to? "

Oxymoron says, "Exercises? Yes - lots of ways of introducing their students to hypertext - e.g. using cards, with bits of a story on it, which the students assemble - and then find that I've already removed some of the cards - yet they managed to make a story with the bits they had..."

Deena says, "Hi Haimish, we are talking about how students learn to read, write and TEACH hypertexts..."

Deena says, "Do you have many of these exercises written in a handy place?"

Deena looks to pass around Wendy's great ideas

JennyL. says, "To Oxymoron - I love your idea about the letter - sounds like a way to double check where they've been. Also this would allow for personal conversations with the student. Have you ever tried dialogue journals where the teacher and the student have private conversations on the readings. It seems like this would serve a purpose with ht as well.""

ceball laughs at Deena's nicely leading question.

Salmon hrms. "Wendy, are you saying that there is something in the group discussion of a text that locks us in to a way of approaching lit that doesn't work with ht?"

Oxymoron says, "I also do quite a bit with collage - drawing on their experience of visual composition."

Oxymoron says, "And yes, I agree that "reading" is a constructed practice. So how do we learn to "read" hypertext?"

ceball [to Oxymoron]: Can you explain the collage a bit more?

Oxymoron says, "Journals is a good idea too - this letter stuff is just a variant of that. They keep journals of their reading and writing journeys, particularly keeping a finger on the pulse of their (print based) experiences and expectations."

Deena says, "Those journals would be really valuable for other readers of the same ht--I am thinking of Jill Walker's essay on how she read afternoon..."

Oxymoron says, "Collage - it's a form of composition where you assemble a lot of stuff that's to hand - bus tickets etc - into a pleasing composition, where the juxtapositions are what matter."

Oxymoron says, "Yes, we share journal entries as part of our reading discussion - to see how variable the text is in the reading. Anything to unsettle them, I say! - from their belief that there's one text, one meaning."

ceball says, "Yes, but do you bring in outside materials that match the text of the HT to form the collage?"

Deena says, "Wendy, do you connect the collages with the concepts of montage, navigating, etc in hypertexts?"

Deena applauds the unsettling effects on Wendy's classroom

Salmon grins.

Oxymoron says, "I bring in collage as a way of rethinking narrative and how we construct it out of fragments. Some go on to create hypertext collages themselves in their writing. And yes - I also relate it to montage - with the exception that the variability of links means the collage is in the reading, not just in the making."

Margaret reflects on the notion that there are two forms of hypertext--one meant to organise materials in new ways and one meant to disorganise.

Deena says, "It sounds like many of these exercises are meant to take a deep look at our ingrained expectations of reading. What do students do after examining these perspectives? What kind of insights do they get?"

Oxymoron says, "Caught you thinking Margaret. Agreed."

Deena likes Margaret's reflections and starts organizing and unorganizing the same hypertext just to see what happens.

Salmon chuckles.

ceball says, "I can't say I agree with the idea that one sort of HT is made to be disorganized. Maybe I don't understand where it's coming from."

Oxymoron says, "Insights? They come to recognise that reading isn't natural, and that texts are fragmentary constructs."

ceball says, "Although I'm sure many people think HT is disorganized, but I would perhaps expect that from new readers of HT"

Deena says, "How do your students use those insights when they begin to teach reading and lit and writing? Do the new perspectives come into play?"

Salmon says, "Does this move in to their writing as well? I'm thinking here of their critical writing. Does it help them to be a bit more open-ended in their essays?"

Oxymoron says, "Perhaps we want a slash there - dis/organised. Order in apparent chaos? Certainly not a hierarchical order, necessarily."

Deena says, "Right--we are taking apart the expected organization here..."

ceball says, "Oh, that makes sense to me now. Thanks."

Deena says, "Good point. How do these new perspectives spill over into other areas of study and thinking?"

Oxymoron says, "On their academic writing - they'd love to, some of them - but they recognise that grades rule OK. And the genre of the analytical exposition is pretty resilient."

Salmon smiles.

Haimish says, " I have a different perspective that Deena have suggested I present. Feel free to ignore us :)"

MerryD says, "Do they actually take it into schools and get kids writing and reading ht?"

Haimish says, " I teach CompSci students and they are still struggling with the idea of signs and meanings being different. Mostly what we did this year was talk about cultural constraints of reading and how to make it easier to read scholarly articles on computers"

Oxymoron says, "But in schools, as opposed to universities, where there may be more freedom - some teachers are experimenting with group hypertextual commentaries on films etc."

Oxymoron says, "That's fair enough Haimish. It would be regrettable if we turned ourselves into hypertext thought police."

ceball thinks Haimish makes a good point.

Haimish says, "My students did look (in class) at some hypertexts on the WWW and in StorySpace. Some of them liked them but for the most part they found the HTs confused and the interface (to SS) awful"

Deena says, "Wendy, all, why are we teaching"

Deena says, "Why are we teaching hyperfictions and what is the role of new media fiction in the schools?"

Deena says, "Haimish, what expectations were the compsci students bringing to the readings? "

Haimish says, "I haven't done it, but I like the idea of students creating HTs together. Have any of you experience with that?"

Margaret wonders if soaps aren't ironed out forms of hypertext

Deena says, "Yes, what are the roles of collaboration in ht? What kind of insights can we get from that?"

Ev smiles at Margaret

Deena Keeps throwing out questions to dis/organize the room

MerryD says, "I do a lot of collaboration"

ceball says, "I teach hypertext (more so that strictly hyperfiction) to (hopefully) impart more of a critical lens regarding writing and thinking. A new way (to them) of analysis."

Deena Then hands out dis/organizers for all to throw their thoughts in.

Haimish says, "My students seemed to be expecting that the HTs would be clearer (or not much harder) than plain text and they expected the various maps to help them"

Deena says, "MerryD, what do your students learn in these collaborations?"

MerryD says, "With everyone from librarians to kids: collaboration is one of the most powerful benefits ht offers to the classroom"

Haimish says, "Wait, there is one in the playground outside. I'll drag them in ... No don't wait. We'll be back though."

Oxymoron says, "I'd say we need to engage with this stuff because it's already there, in the textual environment. And because its novelty (for novices) means that it makes them call into question some of their settled notions - and therefore perhaps expands their repertoire and conceptions. And because ... why not have some fun, and some confusion?"

MerryD says, "Creativity, non-linear thinking, working together"

Deena wonders what/who Haimish is dragging in.

Salmon 's class did a group hypertextual interpretation of Macbeth, It was the first piece of group work I have ever done with a class that I felt was a valid collaborative exercise.

JennyL. says, "Now I'm starting to see how to possibly teach ht reading and writing in my own classes. Collaboration makes sense, especially when I am dealing with different abilities/technology .""

Oxymoron says, "Tell us more about the Macbeth collaboration."

Deena says, "Salmon, what insights did your students get out of the group interpretation? Would that differ from a group collaboration on writing?"

MerryD says, "Had a class of 12 year olds, the brightest helped the special needs kids, they got a lot out of it in many ways."

Deena is racking up all the advantages to teaching ht --creativity, breaking down traditional expectations, seeing how to think in new ways

Oxymoron says, "Love the idea of moving away from that false (schooled) notion that writing always has to be done in isolation, in competition for grades."

Salmon says, "Each student in the class had their own web page, but there were themes that they followed through the play, and we embedded links to group pages and individual pages right throughout the text."

JennyL. says, "Yes, I would love to hear about the Macbeth collaboration piece, too....any website to visit?""

Deena says, "Yes, could you share the URL?"

Margaret says, "MerryD what hypertext work did the 12 year olds do. Was it fiction?"

Salmon says, "questions of interpretation came up all the time- how you arrange things on a page, and how that might priviledge one viewpoint over another.."

Deena says, "Also, now is a good time to ask everyone to share their URLs from class experiments, exercises, syllabi, and projects and exercises, and..."

Salmon says, "oh, sure... it's rough though =3D) lemme go dig it up.."

Oxymoron says, "Excellent idea. A sec. teacher did something similar with his students, studying an Aust. film - and exploring some of the stuff that wasn't in the film too (e.g. women, Aboriginal people etc.)"

MerryD says, "Not necessarily, but mostly: we built it round a theme that could be interpreted in fiction, poetry, nonfiction, whatever they were most attracted to"

Deena says, "To share URLs, just type @go URL "http://www.whatever"

MerryD says, "But all hypertextually linked!"

Salmon shares a URL...< collaboration>

Deena says, "Have you guys seen the Victorian web with Brown? I think this is a great first example of collaborative essay writing."

ceball groans upon realizing that her old web page with good examples of HT student essays has changed servers...

Oxymoron says, " gives an early example of my students' responses to this stuff. "

Haimish says, "Hi again, I've finished debriefing the student (who didn't want to type zirself). I don't think they had explicit expectations although the idea of a story without explicit closure was a surprise. They also expect maps to show the readers where they `are' not to show them several ways in which they are lost."

Dane says, " they hate reading hypertexts the way people hate reading stream of conscious?"

Deena says, "So Haimish, we come back around to expectations..."

Deena says, "Dane, say more about how people hate reading stream of consciousness..."

Haimish says, " Expectations: Hi again, I've finished debriefing the student (who didn't want to type zirself). I don't think they had explicit expectations although the idea of a story without explicit closure was a surprise. They also expect maps to show the readers where they `are' not to show them several ways in which they are lost."

ceball says, "I love "several ways in which they are lost.""

Oxymoron says, "Haimish - I agree with your students' perplexities. That's why I think that shorter hypertexts are the way to go - e.g. "Lust" or "I have said nothing" - where they can begin to get the picture and see the significance of returning to the same node etc."

Deena says, "Yet you see the same thing reflected on Wendy's site--"I hate reading jumped [incoherent] things, but I love writing them." "

Deena says, "and another quote "The very thing I hated about reading 'Afternoon',I loved when writing my hypertext. I loved how I could think of anything, and providing there was a thread of association, I could include it.""

Salmon [to Oxymoron]: Can you give us some examples of web based ht that might be accessible for high school students?

ceball says, "There's such a fine line between an incoherent jump and a fine link."

Oxymoron says, "I actually think we'll make hypertext readers by making hypertext writers. They'll only read when they want to learn how to write better."

Deena says, "Good point Wendy. I think the shorter works let people explore without getting too deep into something"

JennyL. smiles at Salmon for bringing up high school

Haimish says, "Hmmm, I'll make a note about _Lust_ so that I can use it as an example next time. Is it on the WWW or somewhere else?"

Deena says, "Lust is from Eastgate--I will put up the URL for the catalogue when I put up this archive"

Oxymoron says, "I think that some of the stuff - including Deena's - published in WordCircuits or New River - is accessible."

Salmon nods and scribbles.

Deena says, "BTW--if anyone finds other stuff and URLs to add in, please let me know. We can also keep a post going in the ELO bulletin board for good stuff..."

ceball says, "Yes, and to second Deena's motion to Eastgate, the reading room there has short pieces that are very accessible."

Dane says, "But high school students study Joyce and that's not very accessible."

Margaret thanks Wendy for her paper. I think it is the difference between being a spectator and a player. Some people hate spectating.

ceball [to Dane]: but they don't read Joyce when they're learning to read.

Haimish says, "My classes looked about part of Deena's vicious quilts and had some good reaction, and some bad too."

Deena says, "I wrote Ferris Wheels to be accessible-- it is at"

ceball [to Dane]: IOW, give them a few smaller pieces to start with, then give them the longer, more rich pieces.

Dane says, "Sure."

Oxymoron says, "It's partly an issue of "branding" - people know that Shakespeare is good for you, and that it's an experience you have to have. They don't yet know that about hyperficiton - tho maybe Joyce's afternoon is approaching that status?"

Deena says, "Good point Cheryl. You have to start anything small--and I think that goes for ht, too."

Deena says, "I like 253, Lies, and Same Day Test as small hypertexts to start people with.

MerryD_again uses those too.

Oxymoron says, "And we don't yet have the commentaries, the Monarch / Cliff / Brodies whatever notes for hypertexts (as if we could / would)!"

Deena says, ""We had a great chat on what hypertexts were easy to teach May 13... that is a good place to go for references. The URLS for these works and the conversation on hypertexts to teach is at"

JennyL. says, "The term "branding" is an excellent one. Just think - someone way back probably had to shake up the curriculum in order to get Shakespeare in there.""

ceball says, "I still like to give Hypertext Gardens (while not a fiction piece, it's a nice essay on the structuring of HT)"

Oxymoron says, "Deena - refs to these - Lies etc too please."

Deena hands out more and more dis/organized cliff notes

Dane says, "I agree with ceball, the gardening analogy is great"

Deena says, "Also, the field changes a LOT--I think there are more pieces now that I would recommend than I knew about on May 13. How do people keep up with what is good and what is easy to each?"

nm says, "I think our young people should really be reading things like The Unknown."

Deena says, "Good point NM. Could you give us the URL?"

Oxymoron says, "Yes - good idea about HT Gardens. I try to make up hypertexts (short ones)to give my students "instructions" - so they're doing it while learning it. In turn, some of my students write their "letters" to future students as hypertexts. "

nm shares a URL...for the unknown. <>.

Deena says, "Are there resource centers that share good resources for teaching?"

Deena says, "How do you guys develop your curriculums?"

Salmon [to nm]: As long as you give them a hefty companion to western lit so that they can keep up with the references.."

nm says, "It's important for children to get their desire for drugs satisfied through literary references, you know,"

Deena hands out drugs and relevance

ceball says, "I know there must be resources out there (like ELO), but still I rely on email word of mouths from other people who *happen* across good HT"

Oxymoron says she'll have hers in a teacup.

Deena says, "Which leads us back--I always loved sitting in a class and saying WHY are we learning this stuff--what good will it do. If I were in your classroom, Wendy, all, what would you tell me?"

nm shares a URL...<>.

Deena hands out more cityscapes in tea cups

Haimish says, "We are revising our curriculum right now. We are merging two schools but we have a CompSci standard curriculum to use as a backbone"

Deena runs and hides from the conservative bugbears of standard curricula

ceball says, "I recently read the mission statement of my university, which says its purpose is to bridge business and technology..."

Deena says, "WHY are we teaching ht? What benefits are there in learning how to read and write ht?"

Salmon says, "It's a powerful tool to help us think about the act of reading- which we've hit on a few times today.."

Oxymoron says, "Deena - I think I tried to answer that question a while ago - mind you, the students also ask the same thing. Because it's there, because it's interesting, because it expands our repertoire in reading and writing, because it nudges us to think again about what we've taken for granted about reading and writing and the nature of text as something that stands still and can be pinned down on the page."

Deena says, "Cheryl, how does ht help us bridge business and tech and lit? Could you spell it out for us..."

ceball says, "Lucky for me, I'm in the humanities dept., and yet the school makes no mention of communication. I think HT is one way of breaking those molds and being more creative and critical in our communication strategies."

Haimish says, "Our overarching goal has been to graduated students who have passed certain core courses and taken a specialization in 1 of a few areas. The dean also wants an interdiscinipl<mumble> concentration, so we're trying to identify one course from each specialization to include in the non-specialized specialty"

Deena solemnly copies down Wendy's answer as a manifesto...but really likes, because it is there...

Salmon grins and nods at Deena.

Salmon goes over the ht mountain.

Deena says, "So, Haimish, what would you say to someone to explain why they should take a ht course."

nm says, "I think it's great the hypertext is being taught because it helps people to realize that the type of reading they do when they read Moby Dick can be done when looking at a screen, where so many of the words we encounter are, nowadays."

Haimish says, "Deena, tell the engineers to leave us alone and we'll make the bear bug off."

ceball says, "I'm teaching all engineers this semester, and it's hard to bridge technology and business with writing. They think it's simply another English class. "

Haimish says, "That depends what kind of a HT course."

Deena doesn't understand Haimish's bear bugs...

Oxymoron says, "One of the things I like about the hypertext conference - and Deena for one knows this - is the way it brings together the scribblers and techies."

ceball nods, good point

Dane says, "'s gotta and thanks everyone for the chat"

Deena cheers for bringing scribblers and techies together.

Haimish says, "An awful pun-like thing it was: bugbear =3D bear (I know it really isn't but y'know what they say about consistency)"

Dane has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove Dane.

Deena can't resist getting in an ad for CyberFlats in August 2001 where we will work intensely with writers and programmers.

Deena sends hobgoblins after Haimish.

Haimish runs.

Haimish hides.

ceball wants to add her ad for Computers in Writing-Intensive Courses (CIWIC) next summer -- there's a special session for new media and how to use it in the classroom.

JennyL. says, "Bye everyone ... duty calls elsewhere, but thanks for letting me sit in on this conversation. I'll track the rest later on the archive."

Haimish better not shout

Deena says, "I have a real life emergency--my neighbor just came to the door and needs to go to the emergency room. May I ask you all to stay and have fun chatting and figuring out how to teach ht in schools and universities?"

ceball laughs at holiday cheer.

ceball says, "Good luck Deena. wish your neighbor well"

Deena hands round never ending supplies of goodies and runs ducks out.

Oxymoron wishes she knew more about what's happening out there, in extra/ordinary schools, where teachers and students are doing interesting stuff. If we knew more about what's actually happening, it might enable more teachers to make more happen with hypertexts.

Salmon says, "eep.. bye Deena."

Salmon . o O ( an ELO for teachers? )

Haimish says, "I know a highschool history teacher who used to (about 5 years ago) have her student write HTML essays. She was extraordinary"

Margaret waves goodbye to everyone. Would stay as the conversation is engrossing but has a lot of work she has neglected for a couple of hours.

MerryD_again says, "Wendy, have you seen Kids on the Net?"

Oxymoron says, "Bye Deena, and thanks for all your inputs. Hope all is well with the neighbour."

Oxymoron says, "MerryD - no. Tell me more."

MerryD_again says, "Lots of school ht work"

Margaret has disconnected.

Oxymoron says, "OK. Got a URL?"

MerryD_again shares a URL...<>.

Salmon says, "anyone seen the stuff at the Beacon School in New York?"

Oxymoron says, "Nope. Tell more."

MerryD_again shares a URL...<>.

Oxymoron says, "Hey, love that febrile flag!"

Ev says, "bye all. It was an interesting chat."

Salmon says, "Beacon has a focus in tech, aesthetics and community and they do some groovy stuff.. the english teacher had a piece in Kairos .."

Salmon goes to find an url.

ceball says, "I love the u-grad program here at Michigan Tech -- the STC program is all about creating and analyzing and building, etc. multimedia and hypertext and web design -- preparing for a grand career out there in the cyberworld (or technical writers, too). I'm in the PhD program here, and I love the interdisciplinary-ness of it all. That's my two cents on good schools/etc. "

ceball says, "Anyways, thanks for sharing all your wonderful ideas today, everyone. Gotta go do a paper...Bye!"

Haimish says, "Hmmm. we have students here who do web-type stuff as part of a masters in electronic commerce. "

Haimish says, "I suspect that they are more interested in b2b and usability than literature though."

Salmon shares a URL...<>.

Oxymoron says, "When you look at the textual world we inhabit, it's so hypermediated, it's remarkable that education hasn't caught up. I'd put webbing and hypermediating at the centre of a hyperventilating curriculum."

Salmon thinks that's the quote of the day.

Oxymoron says, "Thanks. But for me now - it's time to get on with the rest of my virtual life. Been great talking to you. I'm looking forward to reviewing our chat and following up.."

Salmon says, "Thanks so much Wendy.."

Haimish says, "I saw part of an interview with students from Ryerson talking about buy-nothing-day. The national TV hosts (2 of them) couldn't understand that we live in a commercial culture and that this is the 1st generation to have ads in school washrooms/restrooms/facilities/whatever-you-call-em"

nm waves bye, needing to return to end-of-semester schoolwork that does not have anything to do with hypertext.

Haimish says, "I think that many students don't see the culture nearly as clearly as we do -- because they haven't been exposed to as much as we have and don't yet have the intellectual maturity. A big part of my job, as I see it, is to help them grow without exerting undue influence. Since I'm at a U I can truly say that I help them to learn but that I don't teach. I'll be leading undergrad classes in a few months so we'll see if I can last."

Salmon says, "And you'll be introducing ht to those classes?"

Haimish says, "It looks like we're the only two who are really here"

Salmon nods. "And I should be running along soon.."

Haimish says, "One class will be advancer web technology. I'm not sure what to do yet, I'm thinking of having them write some servers. The other will be intro to human-computer interaction and that one might see some HT. I haven't decided yet."

Salmon says, "It'll be interesting to see the reactions."

Haimish says, "It will depend how I can make the HT fit the course."

Salmon loves squeezing her interests into curriculum.

Haimish says, "It was fun to show afternoon to my grads but not fun to have them say it made them nauseous."

Haimish says, "Well, I should probably get back to my work now. Thanks it's been fun and informative."

Salmon says, "Wow.. I'm taking a course in Cybertext in the English department here at the graduate level. We'll be looking at afternoon and Patchwork Girl next term.. "

Haimish says, "Cool!""

Salmon says, "me too.. good luck with your course"

Haimish says, "Perhaps I could have my students look at MOOs..."

Haimish says, "Bye...."

Salmon hops.

The housekeeper arrives to cart Haimish off to bed.

BBly quietly enters.

BBly arrives.

BBly says, "Hm. rusty."

BBly says, "Bye!"

BBly leaves for General Elit chat links

BBly arrives from General Elit chat links

BBly has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove BBly.

-- End log: Sunday, December 3, 2000 7:43:45 p.m. CST


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